4094 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 09 August 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

The Finda, a  Mongolian people according to the OLB, orginated near the Himalayas (by their own words what the OLB tells us about them; the Ald Land, the Old Land).


The Exterminated & Subjugated Races : Blacks (`Dasyus' &
`Sudras'), Semites (`Panis') and Mongoloids (`Nagas')

(...)


The Mongoloids are also mentioned by the Sanskrit poets. In Sanskrit they are
referred to as Yakshas, in Pali as Yakkos & in Chinese as Yueh-Chih [ 1800,p.45
]. These yellow races descended from the Himalayas and occupied much of the
Ganges valley. Being natives of higher regions they considerd themselves to be
superior to the inhabitants of the plains, and assumed the name of daivaputra of
the sons of gods' [ 1800,p.45 ]. They spread over the whole of Bengal, and
emigrated thence by sea to southern Indian and Ceylon.

http://xa.yimg.com/k...an Invasion.pdf

I should have added a passage from the OLB:

Punjab, that is five rivers, and by which we travel, is a river of extraordinary beauty, and is called Five Rivers, because four other streams flow into the sea by its mouth. Far away to the eastward is another large river, the Holy or Sacred Ganges. Between these two rivers is the land of the Hindoos. Both rivers run from the high mountains to the plains. The mountains in which their sources lie are so high that they reach the heavens and therefore these mountains are called Himellaia. Among the Hindoos and others out of these countries there are people who meet together secretly. They believe that they are pure children of Finda, and that Finda was born in the Himellaia mountains, whence she went with her children to the lowlands. Some of them believe that she, with her children, floated down upon the foam of the Ganges, and that that is the reason why the river is called the Sacred Ganges.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bx


+++++

EDIT:


(...) and that that is the reason why the river is called the Sacred Ganges. But the priests, who came from another country, traced out these people and had them burnt, so that they do not dare to declare openly their creed. In this country all the priests are fat and rich. In their churches there are all kinds of monstrous images, many of them of gold.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bx



Remnants of civilization in the greater Bengal region date back four thousand years, when the region was settled by Dravidian, Tibeto-Burman, and Austro-Asiatic peoples. The exact origin of the word "Bangla" or "Bengal" is not known, though it is believed to be derived from Bang, the Dravidian-speaking tribe that settled in the area around the year 1000 BCE.

Medieval European geographers located paradise at the mouth of the Ganges and although this was overhopeful, Bengal was probably the wealthiest part of the subcontinent until the 16th century. The area's early history featured a succession of Hindu empires, internal squabbling, and a tussle between Hinduism and Buddhism for dominance.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Bangladesh
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Gangaridai

So, would that mean that these Tibeto-Burman and Austro-Asiatic peoples were the OLB Finda?
And that the priests "who came from another country" were the Dravidians?

And.....was the mouth of the Ganges (or an area nearby) the OLB Aldland?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 10 August 2012 - 06:50 AM.

[Abramelin]

New Stone Age civilisation, showing connection with that of Bihar, Orissa and Asam existed in Bangla around 3000 to 1500 BC.


Then suddenly a metal processing civilization appears. Archaeology has not been able to find the missing link from stone tools to metal tools use. This might suggest the influx of a new people into the region and maybe this goes hand in hand with the legends. The Indus civilization ended around 1800 BCE and there is a marked change in Bangla around this time...this ties in with the story of the Bong and Al peoples. Recently an ancient city has been discovered in West Bangla at Chandraketugarh near Berachampa, in North 24 Pargana. The city is presumed to be of King Chandraketu from the Gupta era (4th to 6th century AD) but will await carbon 14 tests.

==

We can assume cities existed in ancient Bangla, however, not many ruins dating back in or before the first millennium BC have been located. Certainly some cities like Pundra are refered to in ancient Aryan texts before there was much contact between the Aryans and the Bangales. Were the ruins such as ChandraketuGarh (Gaur) built upon older cities of the past?

http://mukto-mona.ne...gal_history.htm

[Abramelin]

I have said many times in part 1 of this thread that the OLB Aldland/Atland was located in Asia, based on the description of the Finda people and that they lived very far away in their Aldland.

I also said that the OLB story about "Inka" -  who said sayonara to Nef Tunis when the latter was about to enter the Med, and then went west to find any remnants of Aldland - was nothing but an adapation of Columbus sailing west across the Atlantic to find a shorter route to  Kathay.China/Asia.

Then, that Aldland was the Old Land, Paradise or Eden.

Well, look again where people during medieval times thought Eden was located and what Columbus really set out to find:


Early Mapping of Southeast Asia - Thomas Suarez / 1999

http://books.google....aradise&f=false

[Abramelin]

Is there a connection between South-East Asia and the OLB/Cornelis Over de Linden/Enkhuizen?

I think so.


First:

Enkhuizen was an important harbor for the Dutch East Indies Company (VOC) and the company had large warehouses in Enkhuizen, and huge ships entered and left the harbor. Enkhuizen was also one of the largest shareholders of the VOC.

http://en.wikipedia....t_India_Company
http://en.wikipedia....tch_East_Indies
http://kunst-en-cult...er-almanak.html


Second:

A book in CodL's library:

35. John v. Smit, Beschrijving van Indie Ao 1638.
(India/ East Indies Company)

http://oeralinda.blo...of-bio-his.html


Third:

(IV-6) Cornelis Jansz OVER DE LINDEN I, son of (III-3), born 11-1-1811 Enkhuizen, died 22-2-1874 Den Helder, naval timberman, shipbuilder, worked for Royal Navy in Den Helder;

(V-7) Cornelis OVER DE LINDEN II, son of (IV-6), born 5-10-1833 Amsterdam, teacher, left to the Dutch Indies in 1853, where he died in 1868.

http://rodinbook.nl/...schiedenis.html


Fourth (maybe a bit long and complicated, but bear with me please) :

Where does the name "Finda" in the OLB come from, what does it mean? We have all discussed several possible meanings, and they were "(to) find", "fiend" and the like. Also a shift from Hindu > PHindu > Findu > Finda. However, the OLB mentions the "Hindoos" as different from the Finda.


From the OLB:

Sin forme nôm wêre Jes-us, thach tha prestera thêr-im sêralik haeton hêton him Fo thaet is falx, thaet folk hête him Kris-en thaet is herder, aend sin Fryaske frjund hêta him Bûda, vmbe that hi in sin hâvad en skaet fon wisdom hêde aend in sin hirt en skaet fon ljavde.

His first name was Jes-us, but the priests, who hated him, called him Fo, that is, false; the people called him Kris-en, that is, shepherd; and his Frisian friend called him Buda, because he had in his head a treasure of wisdom, and in his heart a treasure of love.

http://oeralinda.blo...ection -1806 AD

Here is a quote from Volney's book ("Les Ruines", a book in Cornelis Over de Linden's library) :

XIII. Christianity, or the Allegorical Worship of the Sun,
under the cabalistical names of Chrish-en, or Christ, and
Ye-sus or Jesus.

"Finally, these traditions went so far as to mention even his astrological and mythological names, and inform us that he was called sometimes Chris, that is to say, preserver,149 {p.160} from that, ye Indians, you have made your god Chrish-en or Chrish-na; and, ye Greek and Western Christians, your Chris-tos, son of Mary, is the same; sometimes he is called Yes, by the union of three letters, which by their numerical value form the number 1,608, one of the solar periods.150 And this, Europeans, is the name which, with the Latin termination, is become your Yes-us or Jesus, the ancient and cabalistic name attributed to young Bacchus, the clandestine son (nocturnal) of the Virgin Minerva, who, in the history of his whole life, and even of his death, brings to mind the history of the god of the Christians, that is, of the star of day, of which they are each of them the emblems."

http://oeralinda.blo...ection -1806 AD

So, does the OLB "Kris-en" indeed mean "herder" or "shepherd"? I can't say, but Krishna's alternative name does...


Govinda and Gopāla are names of Krishna, referring to his youthful occupation as a cowherd.

Both names translate to "cowherd". Sanskrit go means "cow"; pāla and vinda form tatpurusha compounds, literally translating to "finder of cows" and "protector of cows", respectively.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Govinda


Kris-en, Krishna: "cow-herder" or "cow-finder".... Go-Vinda.

What's also nice is that in Indonesia "Govinda" is spelled as "Gofinda" and still is both a first name as well as a family name in Indonesia.

And did the Dutch have a reason to not like these 'Go-Findas' much? Well, there was of course  lot of resistence in the Dutch Indies against the Dutch occupation, and lots of battles were fought.


So what we have now:

- CodL was born in Enkhuizen;
- Enkhuizen was an important harbor for the Dutch East Indies Company (VOC);
- CodL's son left in 1853 for the Dutch East Indies and died there;
- Govinda , cowherd/cow-finder. was an alternative name for Krishna, or Volney's Chris-en, and of course the OLB Kris-en;
- Govinda is spelled like Gofinda in Indonesia and is a first name (males) and a family name in Indonesia.

The only problem for now is that the Finda were depicted in the OLB as enemies of the Fryans, while Kris-en/Krshna (= Govinda/Gofinda) is the altermative name for the much respected OLB Jes-us.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 10 August 2012 - 12:11 PM.

[Abramelin]

About that Minoan ship with Minoan artefacts (and even a Minoan seal !) :


=

Linear Inscriptions in Germany

German anthropologist and cultural historian Hans Peter Duerr states that the Minoans visited the British Isles, presumably for the tin in Cornwall.  From Cornwall, the North Friesian coast, a rich source of amber, is not much farther.  Since its inundation in 1362, the “lost city” of Rungholt, on the Friesian island, Sudfall, has been a rich source of archaeological information. Under the bronze-aged peat layer were found pithoi, such as those carried aboard Minoan/Mycenaean ships during the 14th and 13th centuries BCE.  Moreover, Duerr, while visiting the Rungholt site in 1994, found in the mud some amber artefacts[1] with Lin A/B inscriptions [2].

1.Interview: Rungholt.  Geo Magazine.  22 Nov 2005.  Ret. on 10 Apr 2012.  <geo.de>.
2.Bernstein [Brownstone]. Ret. on 17 Dec 2012. <kranznet.indi.de>.
RU Zg 1*
PA3-NWA-TI   (03.48.37)
PA.NA.TU (KH 7)

KU-PA3-NU-WE-TO   (81-03-55-75-05)  ►  (KN As 1517)**

KU.PA3.NA.TU  (81. 56.06. 69)   ►  (HT 47)

KU.PA3.NU (81. 56.55)   ►  (HT 1)

Thus far, there is no satisfactory translation.  However, working backward from LinB demonstrates possible concordances in both LinA and LinB.   Nevertheless, at least one element in PA.NWA.TI is consistent with Japanese.  A search for /nwa/, with pattern anywhere, yields at least 100 results.  If attested as LinA, this would be the second instance  of /nwa/  (see also SY Za 4).  Nevertheless, I’m inclined to believe that PA3-NWA-TI belongs to LinB.  Here, the value of PA3 may mirror /fu/as /pha/ or /phu/.  A further validation for PA3.NWA.TI as Linear B is found in a similar name: TI-NWA-TI.  This is to suggest not that the words are the same but that they follow the same morphological structure.

*****
RU Zg 2* (sides A and b )
?.MA?.KO   (?.80?.70)
*****
* Assigning RU (Rungholt); Zg (stone object)

**Linear B transcription

[IMAGES OF THE SEAL]

http://kanashi.net/2...-mediterranean/

============

For those who can read German, here is his book:

Rungholt: Die Suche nach einer versunkenen Stadt - Hans Peter Duerr

http://www.amazon.de...t/dp/3458172742


============

But other scientists remain skeptical about his conclusions:

http://www.ndr.de/ge...ungholt101.html

.

Edited by Abramelin, 10 August 2012 - 01:44 PM.

[Abramelin]

The amber seals found in Germany (see former post):

[Abramelin]

When I said:

Abramelin, on 10 August 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

About that Minoan ship with Minoan artefacts (and even a Minoan seal !) :

I was referring to this post of mine:

http://www.unexplain...2

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 10 August 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

The amber seals found in Germany (see former post):

And a whole pdf about it: http://www.praehisto...onBernstorf.pdf

It's in German, and I will try to sift out the important parts.

You'd think that some of the participants of this thread would have suffered a mild but ecstatic 'stroke after the posts about the Linear A/B seals found in Germany.... Well, that would explain the silence.

[Otharus]

release of http://aldfryas.blogspot.com 13 August 2012,
in memory of Saskia, born 13 August 1962 (-1980)

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 10 August 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

And a whole pdf about it: http://www.praehisto...onBernstorf.pdf

It's in German, and I will try to sift out the important parts.

You'd think that some of the participants of this thread would have suffered a mild but ecstatic 'stroke after the posts about the Linear A/B seals found in Germany.... Well, that would explain the silence.

It's only a matter of time before it's accepted all Greek myths and stories are based in early Scandinavian ones and that trade and movement was rife between these 2 cultures, it is good to see finds like this for sure...

AMBER
Infrared spectroscopy proves that most of the amber found in ancient sites in the Mediterranean came from the Baltic, as did that in the Uluburun wreck. It appears possible that Crete’s expanding empire was already trading in amber by 1725 BC. Others have come to similar conclusions, notably Hans-Peter Duerr, who’s most exciting findings, he told the German magazine GEO, lay underneath the late medieval Rungholt – beneath, and therefore older than, a Bronze Age layer of peat dated to 1200 BC.
“… We came across remains of Levantine and especially Minoan ceramics, the daily kind used to transport goods. They were dated 13th and 14th century BC. Amongst these were shards of two tripod cooking pots from Crete. That’s why we believe ships were sailing in 1400 BC from Crete to the coast of Northern Frisia…”
http://www.gavinmenz...in-the-library/

[Otharus]

off topic, to become a bit more personal, my biographic wheel, inspired by the book of the Adela-followers

[Otharus]

The Puzzler, on 11 August 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

It's only a matter of time before it's accepted all Greek myths and stories are based in early Scandinavian ones and that trade and movement was rife between these 2 cultures, it is good to see finds like this for sure...

[The Puzzler]

In 1998 a labrys, complete with an elaborately embellished haft, was found at Cham-Eslen, Canton of Zug, Switzerland. The haft was 120 cm long and wrapped in ornamented birch-bark. The axe blade is 17.4 cm long and made of antigorite, mined in the Gotthard-area. The haft goes through a biconical drilled hole and is fastened by wedges of antler and by birch-tar. It belongs to the early Cortaillod culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe

The Cortaillod culture is one of several archaeologically defined cultures belonging to the Neolithic period of Switzerland. The Cortaillod Culture in the west of the region is contemporary with the Pfyn Culture in the east and dates from between 3900-3500 BC. The Classic Cortaillod Culture of the western Alpine foreland and the Early Cortaillod Culture of central Switzerland pre-date this at 4300-3900 BC.
http://en.wikipedia....taillod_culture

The labrys may have even made it's way to Crete from the areas of Switzerland.

[Abramelin]

I think the important thing here is not just amber from the Baltic and say iron weapons or gems from the Med showing up in either area, but that there must have been a direct contact between cultures at the North Sea coast and from the Mediterranean, as the find a Minoan ship in the North Sea coast would prove. Before that all these finds could be based on thousands of miles long trade routes with many points of exchange along these routes. By that Chinese artifacts showed up in the center of the Roman Empire and in ancient Egypt.

Like I just now posted on another forum ("Historum", in a thread about contact between Crete and Scandinavia), Pytheas not only explored the northern seas, he may have actually retraced these existing ancient routes.

But you see that not all things are whiped from history. For this thread it would be important that an ancient Scandinavian or Northern European ship shows up near Greece or Crete for instance.

And even more important: if some tablets, stone plates, or whatever, show up in these areas with the OLB script on them....

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 11 August 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

I think the important thing here is not just amber from the Baltic and say iron weapons or gems from the Med showing up in either area, but that there must have been a direct contact between cultures at the North Sea coast and from the Mediterranean, as the find a Minoan ship in the North Sea coast would prove. Before that all these finds could be based on thousands of miles long trade routes with many points of exchange along these routes. By that Chinese artifacts showed up in the center of the Roman Empire and in ancient Egypt.

Like I just now posted on another forum ("Historum", in a thread about contact between Crete and Scandinavia), Pytheas not only explored the northern seas, he may have actually retraced these existing ancient routes.

But you see that not all things are whiped from history. For this thread it would be important that an ancient Scandinavian or Northern European ship shows up near Greece or Crete for instance.

And even more important: if some tablets, stone plates, or whatever, show up in these areas with the OLB script on them....

Yes, this is true Abe, it would be great in helping to establish if the events in the OLB may have occurred, I agree.

Maybe so, but how about that the actual JUL script went into Phoenicia, and was immediatly adapted into a Phoenician/Hebrew semetic written style, so becoming unrecognisable in it's original form.
The Greeks take that writing on and do the same, immediately change it into their own styled alphabet, and so both alphabets may be actually based on the JUL script alphabet but we can't see it - as it was changed immediately - because a while back, Otharus and I were showing (what I thought were) good examples of an IE hebrew connection in the letters and words and I've shown a few meanings which I think are more correct based in the JUL script language than what's interpreted to be the meaning in Phoenician or the same when it boils down to the root word.

Edited by The Puzzler, 12 August 2012 - 06:46 AM.