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Russian warships gathering off Syria waters


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#106    Yamato

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 07:39 AM

View Postand then, on 11 January 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

I get the impression they are there to
1 Provide security for Russian citizens in Syria
2 Bring in a few more weapons/ammo
3 Show the flag
Their presence does have some deterrent effect on western action I guess, but if chemical weapons get used I doubt the Russians would try to stop the west from responding.  If they did it could get really ugly.  I think Putin is as adventurous as he is diminutive ;) but I also hope he's rational enough not to provoke a war over Syria.  Having a tool like Obama in office makes this kind of equation dicey because he isn't respected.  We do NOT need to be involved in Syria in any way.  It's a no win for the US.
Agreed

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#107    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:33 AM

View Postand then, on 11 January 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

I get the impression they are there to
1 Provide security for Russian citizens in Syria
2 Bring in a few more weapons/ammo
3 Show the flag
Their presence does have some deterrent effect on western action I guess, but if chemical weapons get used I doubt the Russians would try to stop the west from responding.  If they did it could get really ugly.  I think Putin is as adventurous as he is diminutive ;) but I also hope he's rational enough not to provoke a war over Syria.  Having a tool like Obama in office makes this kind of equation dicey because he isn't respected.  We do NOT need to be involved in Syria in any way.  It's a no win for the US.
Since the "fleet" is predominantly amphibious ships, accompanied I think by one frigate, if they were likely to have anything in mind it would be invading Syria, I'd have thought.

Who, incidentally, isn't Obama respected by? Perhaps not by the Republican party, but I think most of the rest of the world were quite pleased to see him be re-elected. Would Romney's macho rhetoric have made people respect him? It didn't make the last Republican president very much respected.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

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#108    Yamato

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:48 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 11 January 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Who, incidentally, isn't Obama respected by? Perhaps not by the Republican party, but I think most of the rest of the world were quite pleased to see him be re-elected. Would Romney's macho rhetoric have made people respect him? It didn't make the last Republican president very much respected.
Obama just tapped Chuck Hagel for Defense Secretary so he can't be all bad; Hagel isn't like those Republicans, he's cut from a different cloth.

Edited by Yamato, 11 January 2013 - 08:51 AM.

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#109    and then

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:22 PM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 11 January 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Since the "fleet" is predominantly amphibious ships, accompanied I think by one frigate, if they were likely to have anything in mind it would be invading Syria, I'd have thought.

Who, incidentally, isn't Obama respected by? Perhaps not by the Republican party, but I think most of the rest of the world were quite pleased to see him be re-elected. Would Romney's macho rhetoric have made people respect him? It didn't make the last Republican president very much respected.
Invading?  With a few hundred marines and into an allies ports?  I don't understand that one.  It is a very small contingent after all.  And my statement about Obama is quite clear I think.  Being liked and being respected are often two entirely different things.  Of course, I do start from the premise that countries in this world have different and often conflicting national interests and will forcefully pursue them.  So why wouldn't the leaders of Russia, China or Iran LOVE to have an American president in power who often enough lines up with THEIR goals?  More specifically though, power politics is like a poker game with lives on the table instead of chips.  If an enemy thinks you will not defend a principle (or a port) then *gasp* they might just push you when you least expect it.  Quite naive to think otherwise.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#110    Spiral staircase

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:24 PM

View PostYamato, on 11 January 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

Obama just tapped Chuck Hagel for Defense Secretary so he can't be all bad; Hagel isn't like those Republicans, he's cut from a different cloth.

OMG quit fanboying Hagel.

Quote

While Hagel did not cast a vote on that particular legislation, he voted four times between 1998 and 2003 to uphold a ban on abortions at military hospitals, and he announced in 1995 that he had "tightened" his position on abortion to oppose it in cases of rape and incest. "I don't think those two exceptions are relevant," he said at the time, noting the low incidence of pregnancies from rape.

http://www.huffingto..._n_2427148.html


Quote

"We welcome evolution on issues of gay rights, but the timing of this evolution, the way it was announced, and Hagel's record, support for DOMA as well as his statements about 'Don't Ask Don't Tell' make him the wrong choice for this nomination."

http://www.huffingto..._n_2441511.html

Quote

On economic issues, Hagel supported the Bush tax cuts, the G.O.P.’s calls for a balanced-budget amendment, and the 2001 bankruptcy law that made it harder for credit-card debtors to walk away from their debts. He voted against No Child Left Behind, a ban on drilling in the Arctic, more restrictions on the tobacco industry, and campaign-finance reform. He voted for means-testing Medicare, eliminating fuel-economy standards, and the partial privatization of Social Security. In short, he was a faithful supporter of pro-corporate, trickle-down policies.


Read more: http://www.newyorker...l#ixzz2HgHCvmcj




#111    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:19 PM

View Postand then, on 11 January 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

Invading?  With a few hundred marines and into an allies ports?  I don't understand that one.  It is a very small contingent after all.  
No, i wasn't saying that they were, just that it's hardly what you'd send if you wanted a show of force to dissuade anyone from intervening, is it. Or perhaps, if you wanted to be conspiratorial, perhaps to put troops on the ground in order to dissuade people from doing so?

Quote

And my statement about Obama is quite clear I think. Being liked and being respected are often two entirely different things. Of course, I do start from the premise that countries in this world have different and often conflicting national interests and will forcefully pursue them. So why wouldn't the leaders of Russia, China or Iran LOVE to have an American president in power who often enough lines up with THEIR goals? More specifically though, power politics is like a poker game with lives on the table instead of chips. If an enemy thinks you will not defend a principle (or a port) then *gasp* they might just push you when you least expect it. Quite naive to think otherwise.

So when the previous Republican president was rattling the sabre (or in fact doing more than rattling it, actually thrusting it into the bowels of Saddam Hussein), that made him respected and gave him credibility? :unsure2:  I'd have said it did just the opposite for America's credibility and respect worldwide; unless the intention was just to make America feared. Any gung-ho sabre rattling such as Mr. Romney might have offered would not have made America much more respected, I suspect.

Edited by Lord Vetinari, 11 January 2013 - 04:20 PM.

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#112    and then

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 06:58 PM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 11 January 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

No, i wasn't saying that they were, just that it's hardly what you'd send if you wanted a show of force to dissuade anyone from intervening, is it. Or perhaps, if you wanted to be conspiratorial, perhaps to put troops on the ground in order to dissuade people from doing so?



So when the previous Republican president was rattling the sabre (or in fact doing more than rattling it, actually thrusting it into the bowels of Saddam Hussein), that made him respected and gave him credibility? :unsure2:  I'd have said it did just the opposite for America's credibility and respect worldwide; unless the intention was just to make America feared. Any gung-ho sabre rattling such as Mr. Romney might have offered would not have made America much more respected, I suspect.
I'm thinking primarily of the impressions formed by world leaders.  Perhaps fear is the correct word but I don't really think so in this case.  My point is that if a leader like Putin or Ahmadinejad for example have sized up Obama as an empty suit with no backbone to defend an ideal with force then that certainly enters into their calculations on foreign policy issues concerning contact with America.  If the fear of force is sufficient to keep trouble at bay then violence is avoided.  Hard feelings can be smoothed in time.  Miscalculation is one of the best known causes for war.  As to America's respect and credibility I agree that the world pretty much feels justified to blame us for nearly all the ills present today.   Many are justified but not all.  Obama's "betrayal" of Mubarak and Gaddafi sent the message that we'll walk away just when needed most.  That doesn't help with credibility or retaining allies either.  I'm not sure what latitude he had to act in their favor but he seemed to do nothing but say here's your hat, what's your hurry? As he showed them the door.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#113    Yamato

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 07:44 PM

View PostI believe you, on 11 January 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

OMG quit fanboying Hagel.

Do you know how rare it is for a US politician to exhibit a non-interventionist mindset?   I'm not a "fan" but I know how much worse it could easily be.   And still might.

What is wrong with tax cuts and balanced budgets?   What's right about abortions?   Do you want tax increases and unbalanced budgets and more abortions?   I'll take the other side on all three of those, thanks.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#114    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:02 PM

Well, lets see who is awake... Here is latest news about refitting Russian cruiser, undoubtably for pupose of attacking FSA. And the other day Putin was aboard Peter the Great at Murmansk, so that must be "proof" of huge invasion fleet about to set sail against reactionary imperialists and capitalists. If only.......
http://www.vesti.ru/...d=1003106&cid=7


#115    and then

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:19 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 11 January 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

Well, lets see who is awake... Here is latest news about refitting Russian cruiser, undoubtably for pupose of attacking FSA. And the other day Putin was aboard Peter the Great at Murmansk, so that must be "proof" of huge invasion fleet about to set sail against reactionary imperialists and capitalists. If only.......
http://www.vesti.ru/...d=1003106&cid=7
I don't imagine anyone is panicking just yet ;)  The Russian moves are just to protect their citizens and their political allies.  I only worry that our leader is so weak that others will feel they can challenge him too much.  Bad situation.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#116    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:32 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 11 January 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

Well, lets see who is awake... Here is latest news about refitting Russian cruiser, undoubtably for pupose of attacking FSA. And the other day Putin was aboard Peter the Great at Murmansk, so that must be "proof" of huge invasion fleet about to set sail against reactionary imperialists and capitalists. If only.......
http://www.vesti.ru/...d=1003106&cid=7
Ah, they're recommissioning her at last,are they? I heard that China might have been interested in buying her to build up their blue water fleet to challenge the U.S. ;)

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#117    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:37 PM

:D


#118    Yamato

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:13 PM

Supplying the Syrian regime from outside Syria is precisely what will keep this bloody grind going indefinitely.   If Assad can contain the resistance into pockets and strangle it for long enough, victory for the rebels doesn't look plausible.   It might be easy for some of us to act callous about this and joke about museum ships in the light of all this death and destruction even if Assad comes out the winner in the end, when we don't have to live in Syria and it isn't our families who were killed by their own government.

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#119    and then

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:52 AM

View PostYamato, on 11 January 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

Supplying the Syrian regime from outside Syria is precisely what will keep this bloody grind going indefinitely.   If Assad can contain the resistance into pockets and strangle it for long enough, victory for the rebels doesn't look plausible.   It might be easy for some of us to act callous about this and joke about museum ships in the light of all this death and destruction even if Assad comes out the winner in the end, when we don't have to live in Syria and it isn't our families who were killed by their own government.
Assad I think will at best only rule over a portion of the Syria he began this with.  If he survives at all I think it will be over a canton that is heavily defended by a praetorian and chemical weapons.  Most likely it grinds on until he is assassinated.  But when the rebels don't have to worry about his army any longer I suspect they will get down to the business of revenge.  Unfortunately the dying may just be beginning there.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#120    Spiral staircase

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:12 AM

View Postand then, on 11 January 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

I don't imagine anyone is panicking just yet ;)  The Russian moves are just to protect their citizens and their political allies.  I only worry that our leader is so weak that others will feel they can challenge him too much.  Bad situation.

Except not everyone feels Russia is our enemy or that our leader is weak.

And in case you forgot again the Cold War is over. The 80s texted and want their paranoia back.

View Postand then, on 12 January 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

Assad I think will at best only rule over a portion of the Syria he began this with.  If he survives at all I think it will be over a canton that is heavily defended by a praetorian and chemical weapons.  Most likely it grinds on until he is assassinated.  But when the rebels don't have to worry about his army any longer I suspect they will get down to the business of revenge.  Unfortunately the dying may just be beginning there.

Sounds like a movie.

Anyways the only solution for Syria is dialogue.

The era of conflict with winners and losers is rapidly coming to an end. The century of compromise is before us which will lead into a millennium of harmony.

See, if we have to offer fantasy in this thread it is better to be positive  about it in any case.





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