110 replies to this topic

[Br Cornelius]

Did you not think that basing a culture around the fantasy which is the "American Dream" would be without consequences ?
The problem is a very deep cultural one and unfortunately it has infected the world through the promotional machine which is Hollywood.

If you tell everyone that an ordinary life is failure what can you expect.

Br Cornelius

[DieChecker]

Br Cornelius, on 11 November 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

Did you not think that basing a culture around the fantasy which is the "American Dream" would be without consequences ?
The problem is a very deep cultural one and unfortunately it has infected the world through the promotional machine which is Hollywood.

If you tell everyone that an ordinary life is failure what can you expect.

Br Cornelius

Huh?? AFAIK, the "American Dream" used to be that you worked hard at your job and then were rewarded with commensorate pay, allowing that American to buy a home and maybe even a 2nd car and 2nd TV!!!!! WOW! The American Dream was coupled with the Protestant Work Ethic. Where as, the hard working Protestants did well for themselves and achieved better lives for themselves and their kids.

The "American Dream" these days seems to be that everyone is Entitled to live a Middle Class lifestyle, regardless of Work Effort, or even working at all. Working hard is for Suckers, dude....

I think that part of the problem is convincing the Youth of today what Ordinary is. If every kid grows up and gets through high school thinking that Ordinary is a Mayo Clinic Surgeon, or a NYC Bank CEO, or a Pitcher for the Red Socks, or a Platinum Record Rap Star, or a Box Office busting Actor, then they are almost all going to be disappointed in life.

[MichaelW]

Quote

The United States is frittering away its role as a model for the rest of the world.

Since when was that statement ever truthful? Most countries in the world forged their own paths in the world or were modelled after the British, French or other colonial powers. I don't remember New Zealand looking up to the US as a model for ourselves. We always looked to the British and the Australians. And when they failed to provide the answers, we did what we thought was needed to be done. Give women the vote. Become nuclear free.

America needs to stop pretending that everyone looks up to them as a model state. Because that is so far from the truth, it isn't even funny.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

MichaelW, on 12 November 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Since when was that statement ever truthful? Most countries in the world forged their own paths in the world or were modelled after the British, French or other colonial powers. I don't remember New Zealand looking up to the US as a model for ourselves. We always looked to the British and the Australians. And when they failed to provide the answers, we did what we thought was needed to be done. Give women the vote. Become nuclear free.

America needs to stop pretending that everyone looks up to them as a model state. Because that is so far from the truth, it isn't even funny.

I think the U.S. does seem to have always assumed that it's a role model for the rest of the World, whether or not the rest of the World has actually said that that's what they want or not.

[joc]

747400, on 12 November 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

I think the U.S. does seem to have always assumed that it's a role model for the rest of the World, whether or not the rest of the World has actually said that that's what they want or not.

I think you are both missing a point somewhere.  America...people came here because they were searching for something...Freedom...freedom from oppression both tyrannically and financially.  That's the point.
A lot of....Americans don't even get that.  The idea that everyone should be or wants to be like America is ridiculous as MichaelW pointed out.  The one thing that America had going for it...that other countries did want and did aspire to was the aspect of Freedom.  I would gather that today, N.Z. is a much 'freer' place to live than America...which is becoming more and more oppressive every day!

[joc]

And Freedom is not an American idea....Freedom is a HUMAN idea.

[me-wonders]

Br Cornelius, on 11 November 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

Did you not think that basing a culture around the fantasy which is the "American Dream" would be without consequences ?
The problem is a very deep cultural one and unfortunately it has infected the world through the promotional machine which is Hollywood.

If you tell everyone that an ordinary life is failure what can you expect.

Br Cornelius

This most certainly was not always the case!  Not at all, and this why I keep writing and I am so thankful to the people of this forum for not trying to silence me as happens in other forums, where the young males share more in common with the 1940 youth of Germany than they want to realize.  "My country, love it or leave it" was a NAZI slogan.  Our sort of slogan was, the low income worker was the backbone of the country.  People became doctors for the love of practicing medicine.  For the record some doctors accepted a chicken as fair pay and more than one woman doctor people for no pay.  Being an attorney is what out of love of justice, and news reporters gaurded our democracy with information, investegative reporting.   All the professions have been corrupted by money, but it is not money alone.  

Public education is like a genii in a bottle.  The defined purpose is the wish, and the students are the genii.  We changed that wish in 1958.  We stopped transmitting our culture, and began preparing for the Military Industrial Complex.   This is what we fought against, and it is why our values are changed and why we are terrorizing the mid east with drones.  Our completely impersonal warfare, is creating a humantarian debt, and this is not good for any civilization.

This education has destroyed the family, and that has us out of step of Muslim countries.  We should know the Koran says Jews and Christians are people of God, and these people of God are not to be attacked.  However, alcohol use, break up of families, children born out of we lock, and greed are immoral, and unfortunately the US now represents this immorality.  In the past the US was a highly moral nation and everyone knew this is how we kept our liberty.   Everyone knew, only highly moral people can have liberty, and we knew this  is based on good moral judgement (good reasoning), and not necessarily a holy book.  

Buttom line, we are no longer the democracy we defended in two world wars, but what we fought against.

[me-wonders]

joc, on 12 November 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

And Freedom is not an American idea....Freedom is a HUMAN idea.

Actually, historically, most of the world has accepted the rule of dictators, and Christian Europe, including what is now the United Kingdom, held that kings were chosen by God and therefore correctly above us.  Places around the world accepted slavery and the South in the US used they the bible to defend slavery.  The bible says only Hebrews can not be slaves, because of their special relationship with God, however, they could own slaves, and when in a pinch, they could sell their daughters into slavery.

Liberal education is based on Greek and Roman classics and wherever there was literacy in the classics, there was a revolution for liberty, and this includes Orthodox Russia, which following the revolution made religion taboo.  It had good reason to make religion taboo, as it had serfs, which is equal to slavery, except people are not sold as individual but with the land.    I have not checked lately, but a few years ago some of Africa still had slavery, and in at least India children have been sold a laborers, as at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, poor people in England sold their children to industry.  

We should not take our liberty and justice for granted.  And here I go getting into trouble again, every forum argues in favor of moderators restricting freedom of speech, and a person can be banned for arguing the judgement of some moderators is poor.  I promise you all, I know the arguments for moderators very well.  However, while everyone makes this argument favoring the power of moderators, I want to point out, newspapers and TV stations are privately owned, and only if we are united and stand for freedom of speech, will we keep it.   In this day when reporters report what they are told, and information we truly need is with held from us, I think we should be on high alert.   Yes, the forums are privately owned, and yes, there are good reasons for controlling the forums, expecially when people no longer  learn the principles of democracy, so they can not live by them.  And we no longer learn moral judgement is about good decision making and tied to logic.   We have been educating for a police state, because we are not education for self government, that is high morality based on independent thinking and good judgement.  It is not good judgement to do things that force a moderators hand, and today we have more bad judgement than evern, however, are we paying attention to who defends our freedom of speech it is not you and me?  When everyone argues defensively in favor of the power of moderators, I feel the dread of what we have become.   Especially when they are well intentioned and telling me I am a NAZI and a dictator, because they don't like what I am saying, and I am told I can not speak of education.  People here are very different from the other forums I have been on, so I have some hope of getting information out there, so people can act on it if they want too.  Being as blind and nationalistic as NAZI youth is not a good thing.    They can not compare what we have become with a past they never experienced, and like the youth of Germany, believe what they have is superior and justifies their acts of wars, and all the police state steps we have taken in the last decade to pervent our "freedom"   from flying into uncontrolled anarchy.    That is what moderates are up against, so they are justified by mass ignorance, but such justification is how we become a police state.  If we want liberty, we must return to teaching principles and the reasoning for them.   We can rely on education or a police state.  Your choice.  Bottom line, freedom without education for good moral judgement, is not possible.

[joc]

a lot of what you said I agree with ....but your original premise is inherently flawed...

Quote

Actually, historically, most of the world has accepted the rule of dictators

No, you are wrong.  Historically most of the world has lived under the rule of dictators..but...accept?  No.  You are wrong.  If one has a choice one does not choose a ruthless dictator...and all dictators are ruthless...there is no such thing as a 'benevolent dictator'.   Please don't tell me that King Solomon was a benevolent dictator....and spare me the list of other kings that you may think were.

Freedom is a human condition.  People want to be free.  But people are stupid and lazy and morally corrupt.   And when we are talking about People we are always talking historically, because people don't change...size and shape...but human is human...and if humans live under a dictator it is because they have no choice.  Not because they 'accepted' that as the way things should be.   Do you think Americans will Accept the coming Police State?  No they will not...they will revolt...and they will be subdued...and then they will live under the thumb of the Police State.   THAT is history.

[me-wonders]

747400, on 12 November 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

I think the U.S. does seem to have always assumed that it's a role model for the rest of the World, whether or not the rest of the World has actually said that that's what they want or not.

What we were was a model for the world.  What we have become is not.

There are two ways to have social control.  Culture or authority over the people.  The US transmitted a culture for liberty and justice through public schoods, and this education was 100% about social order and had nothing to do with vocational training until 1917.

We have Germany to thank for our huge middle class and our high standard of living, because they are the ones who began education for technology.  England rejected this education because education for technology is a great social leveler.  It means the children of farmers can be educated for professional careers and go from dirt poverty to riches.  When people argue everyone should not be taxed to educate everyone else's children I am horrified!  They are not understand what education did to get us out of the dirt, and to grow our middle class, and build a tax base to care for our elderly, and build our super highways, dams, etc..  In the beginning Germany was the only nation to have this education.  Hello, this is so important I am repeating it.  Germany was the only country to have education for technology.   England rejected it because it wanted to protect its social classes, and not that long ago, you got a job on the railroad, if your Dad worked on the railroad, and we did not have the merit hiring we have today.

Between 1917 and 1958, we have liberal education, plus vocational training, and we enjoyed the best of both.  This education supported our liberty, by teachning the morality the essential to liberty, and it offered vocational training to everyone.  Now parents really wanted to send their children to school, because it meant their children could have a better life.  This education might upward economic mobility.  Be every clear on this, we continued to transmit our culture until 1958.  We educated for independent thinking, not "group think" which is perfered by technology.  We taught for critical thinking, which our present news reporters are not doing, and this dramatically changes the quality of reporting, as reporters are not critially thinking, but are relying on authority.

   What we are today, is not what we fought two world wars to defend.  We always demobilized following a war, until Eisenhower and the Korean war.  Eisenhower's administration replaced the democracy we were with the Military Industrial Complex.  Our democracy was hijacked, just as the Christian Republic of Germany was hijacked.  If we do not immediately become aware of what was done and why, and with knowledge discuss the pro's and con's of this change, we have fought every war for nothing.  

  On the other hand.  If we regain our memory, and consider we are in the Resurrection now, and have the technology that is essential to the New Age, thanks to education for technology, humanity may realize a new golden age.  For the first time in history, we have the advantage of more than 6000 years of history, and the technology to communicate instantly around the world.  Who knows?  May be this was God's plan all along?   But being technologically smart is not enough.  We also need to be wise, and that is what the Greek and Rome classics and studying the rest of the world's philosophy and religion is all about.  Much is demanded of us now, and we can be world leaders, if we regain our wisdom.  

Our education must stop producing products for industry and return to advancing a civilzation with great human potential.    PS, I communicated with a professor in the mid east, who understood democracy better than those of us in the US.  We are acting ignorantly, and destructively and this must stop as soon as possible.   We are behaving as the New World Order, we have been imitating, not as the democracy of our Forefathers.  Anyone remember the original Star Trek and Captian Kirk?   Do not interfere, but once the primitive people get your weapons, it is too late, because they are already contaminated with what you have brought into their environment.   We bought oil rights with weapons.  I have to walk my dog, and I say too much.  Sorry, but we can do better.   Our media has failed us terriblly, and thanks to forum owners such as the people here, becausse they give humanity hope, by allowing what is not said to be said.

[me-wonders]

joc, on 12 November 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

a lot of what you said I agree with ....but your original premise is inherently flawed...


No, you are wrong.  Historically most of the world has lived under the rule of dictators..but...accept?  No.  You are wrong.  If one has a choice one does not choose a ruthless dictator...and all dictators are ruthless...there is no such thing as a 'benevolent dictator'.   Please don't tell me that King Solomon was a benevolent dictator....and spare me the list of other kings that you may think were.

Freedom is a human condition.  People want to be free.  But people are stupid and lazy and morally corrupt.   And when we are talking about People we are always talking historically, because people don't change...size and shape...but human is human...and if humans live under a dictator it is because they have no choice.  Not because they 'accepted' that as the way things should be.   Do you think Americans will Accept the coming Police State?  No they will not...they will revolt...and they will be subdued...and then they will live under the thumb of the Police State.   THAT is history.

Thank you for your argument.  I so late in walking my dog, I should be shot, but please name the nations that have had democracy, before the US.  

I think Americans have totally accepted a police state, and this discussion needs to wait, until you show your picture ID.  You can not have a bank account or even a library card, without this ID and showing proof or your address.  If you have Alzhiemers disease, your wife can not manage your medical care or even paying your bills, unless she has legal authority, that once came with being married, but no longer.  While the privacy act closed family out doing things we assumed family would do, it made it possible for the government to track us through every medical contact, from getting medical care to filling a prescription.  Government can now track us through education, medical and banking records and this was not always so.  You may not be able to ride the Grey Hound Bus without ID, thanks to the Homeland security act.  But pay attention, because these moves to police state, began before 9/11.  Employers and property owners can judge us by what is written in a file with our name, and this was forbidden not that long ago.  A police officer could not ask you for IS unless you were driving and he had good cause.  Now a young man emptying his trash, in his pajamas and not carrying IS can be taken to jail!   Please, show your ID before arguing we have not accepted the reasoning of a police state.

[joc]

me-wonders, on 12 November 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

Thank you for your argument.  I so late in walking my dog, I should be shot, but please name the nations that have had democracy, before the US.  

I think Americans have totally accepted a police state, and this discussion needs to wait, until you show your picture ID.  You can not have a bank account or even a library card, without this ID and showing proof or your address.  If you have Alzhiemers disease, your wife can not manage your medical care or even paying your bills, unless she has legal authority, that once came with being married, but no longer.  While the privacy act closed family out doing things we assumed family would do, it made it possible for the government to track us through every medical contact, from getting medical care to filling a prescription.  Government can now track us through education, medical and banking records and this was not always so.  You may not be able to ride the Grey Hound Bus without ID, thanks to the Homeland security act.  But pay attention, because these moves to police state, began before 9/11.  Employers and property owners can judge us by what is written in a file with our name, and this was forbidden not that long ago.  A police officer could not ask you for IS unless you were driving and he had good cause.  Now a young man emptying his trash, in his pajamas and not carrying IS can be taken to jail!   Please, show your ID before arguing we have not accepted the reasoning of a police state.

That's not entirely accurate.  What is accurate is that we are on the brink of becoming a Police State.   But we are not a Police State and no one has accepted that as fact, except maybe you and a few others.  If acceptance was the word of the day, gun sales would not have sky-rocketed after the election.   CAse in point:  I have never...ever...been pulled over for something other than a legitimate traffic violation (except the one time I was pulled over and had my truck searched because they said it looked like the truck that had just been reported in a robbery).  There have been vagrancy laws on the books for a long, long, time...different states have different laws.

We are not a Police State.  Technology has changed.  You misunderstand people accepting technological changes and the sudden information age with being a police state.  A Police State happens when there are laws governing your every behaviour and the biggest law of all is that you do not speak out against any of the laws that govern your every behaviour.

I will argue that we are quickly becoming ripe for Tyranny, and before 2016 I would not be surprised to find ourselves living under hard tyranny.   But we aren't there as of this moment...otherwise..someone would be knocking on our doors and skirting us off for interegation for the things we have said on this forum.

Edited by joc, 12 November 2012 - 08:21 PM.

[DieChecker]

me-wonders, on 12 November 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

This most certainly was not always the case!  Not at all, and this why I keep writing and I am so thankful to the people of this forum for not trying to silence me as happens in other forums, where the young males share more in common with the 1940 youth of Germany than they want to realize.  "My country, love it or leave it" was a NAZI slogan.  Our sort of slogan was, the low income worker was the backbone of the country.  People became doctors for the love of practicing medicine.  For the record some doctors accepted a chicken as fair pay and more than one woman doctor people for no pay.  Being an attorney is what out of love of justice, and news reporters gaurded our democracy with information, investegative reporting.   All the professions have been corrupted by money, but it is not money alone.  

Public education is like a genii in a bottle.  The defined purpose is the wish, and the students are the genii.  We changed that wish in 1958.  We stopped transmitting our culture, and began preparing for the Military Industrial Complex.   This is what we fought against, and it is why our values are changed and why we are terrorizing the mid east with drones.  Our completely impersonal warfare, is creating a humantarian debt, and this is not good for any civilization.

This education has destroyed the family, and that has us out of step of Muslim countries.  We should know the Koran says Jews and Christians are people of God, and these people of God are not to be attacked.  However, alcohol use, break up of families, children born out of we lock, and greed are immoral, and unfortunately the US now represents this immorality.  In the past the US was a highly moral nation and everyone knew this is how we kept our liberty.   Everyone knew, only highly moral people can have liberty, and we knew this  is based on good moral judgement (good reasoning), and not necessarily a holy book.  

Buttom line, we are no longer the democracy we defended in two world wars, but what we fought against.

I have to say... That was well written.

I agree with most everything you said. But though I also consider the chase of money to be the ultimate root of this Evil, it has warped over the last decade to embrace being Famous... being a Celebrity... as being equal to being Rich. And being as Celebrity is a lot easier to accomplish. But, similarly, it also does not help the Industrial Base, or bring in a lot of money, or get students educated and prepared for the future.

[me-wonders]

DieChecker, This is getting off topic, but if our young were prepared for the future shouldn't they have a good understanding of quantum physics, before leaving high school, and some knowledge of Nanotechnology ?    We have radically changed how we teach math, because it is no longer about practical living and how to figure out the budget one must live on, but new math is about computers.   This may be great for the handful of students talented at math good for computers, but does not help the student understand reality and where our technology is taking us.   I am not saying this well, but understanding evolution is about more than knowing Darwin's theory, it is also understanding math and how science and math come together to help us understanding reality.   I look at my adult grandchildren, and think their education was good for 1950, but is not good even for the present, let alone the future.  I think back on raising my own son and daughter, and how I kept waiting for them be old enough for meaningful discussions and they are over 40 and still not ready for those discussions.   I am not sure how that happened, but I think programming our young for industry is not equal to preparing them for life?  Something appears to be missing and if we can figure what, perhaps we can make an important difference?

Joc, what you said makes no sense to me, and what you said about me misunderstanding technological changes, is sure not based on knowing me, or an ability to compare the past with the present, nor political reading about the changes in our country, or any of books about change resulting from changes in technology.  Like have you read "Future Shock" or any of the books that explain what technology is doing to us, before telling me what I am not understanding?  

I wish everyone read Tocqueville's 1830 book "Democracy in America" of at least page 303 where he explains the new despot that Christian democracies would become.  You can read this on line.    Jumping through history we come to Aldous Huxley (1894-1963) and this quote "In the past, personal and political liberty depended to a considerable extent upon governmental inefficiency.  The spirit of tyranny was always more than willing; but its organization and material equipment were generally weak.  Progressive science and technology have changed all this completely"  In fact, the technology has made the nightmare of Tocqueville's vision of a despot a reality.   Comparatively speaking, the people in less developed countries have much greater freedom, because their governments do not have the progressive science and technology to take that freedom from them.    Their governments can not track them through education, medical care, and banking, and saying this tracking is no more than new technology is complete denial of the laws we had that prevented what is happening today.  This is not just new technology, but a different reasoning and changed values.

Edited by me-wonders, 13 November 2012 - 04:13 AM.

[joc]

Edit:  I have re-read both your posts and mine and I think I have not taken in all you were saying and I think I posted with a perspective on what you were saying that wasn't accurate...that is, my perspective was inaccurate not your writings...end edit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
me-wonders,

You are a very well educated lady and I enjoy reading your posts.   Please allow me to reiterate.  When I am talking about technology, I am talking about the nuts and bolts of it.  Computers, iphones, disks, mp3 files, etc.  Information at your fingertips.  I am not arguing any point about where all of this is leading.  I was merely making the point that people do not willingly accept Tyranny...rather, it is thrust upon them to the point they have no choice in accepting it or not.  A case of accept it or die.  And perhaps I am misunderstanding your premise on peoples accepting Tyranny as a natural state of being Human.  But it seemed to me that was what you were saying.  I believe you said, and please forgive me...if I stop to read one more quote I'll never get back here to finish posting...I am so incredibly tired...I believe you said that Freedom was not the natural state of Humans, that history shows that Humans willingly accept Tryanny.  If that isn't what you meant then I inferred incorrectly.
But my point is that technology didn't come about to enslave us, it came about to set us free....nonetheless, enslaved by it we are....and the end result of it all is extremely scary.  Visions of Orwells 1984 are everywhere.  I swear to you, it is only a matter of time before you get pulled over by a traffic cop for speeding and he gives you a warning for the offense, but, he questions you to no end about the fact that you haven't been buying any carrots for the last 3 months and then lectures you about eating carrots and how the Law stipulates that at least one meal per day contain at least 2 carrots.  And how does he know this?  Because he swiped your Driver License and pulled up your entire life...all of your purchase history...your medical files...accessing you in detailed ways that would make you blush.
And then you go home and exercise in front of your big screen flat TV because you know they are watching to see if you are...or not...but they might be so you exercise the way a good little girl is supposed to do.
I don't need to recite the book here, I'm sure you've read it.  So, we are on the same page as all that is concerned.

I am only stating that the desire for freedom is the natural state of man...not the desire to be controlled.

Edited by joc, 13 November 2012 - 05:15 AM.