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raising minimum wage does not reduce poverty


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#16    Frank Merton

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 04:15 AM

Unions try to monopolize the labor force for a given industry and thereby push wages in that industry above the value the workers add.  This of course brings in non-union competition, so the unions use political pressure to create a legal structure prevent this.  This then brings in foreign competition, so the unions use political pressure to create trade barriers.  In the end the union members get destroyed economically by this cycle, because in the end technology and enterprise find ways around union power -- either that or the industry just dies because it prices itself out of afford ability.

An exception is government unions, who can also use political pressure to raise taxes to keep their situation.


#17    acidhead

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 04:19 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 06 September 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

Unions try to monopolize the labor force for a given industry and thereby push wages in that industry above the value the workers add.  This of course brings in non-union competition, so the unions use political pressure to create a legal structure prevent this.  This then brings in foreign competition, so the unions use political pressure to create trade barriers.  In the end the union members get destroyed economically by this cycle, because in the end technology and enterprise find ways around union power -- either that or the industry just dies because it prices itself out of afford ability.

An exception is government unions, who can also use political pressure to raise taxes to keep their situation.

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#18    spacecowboy342

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 04:21 AM

Let's not forget that before unions people worked long hours for very little pay often in unsafe conditions and were dismissed for little or no cause and had no benefits such as retirement and insurance. Perhaps unions have overstepped but I think, in general they have done much to improve the lives of working people


#19    acidhead

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 04:24 AM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 06 September 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

Let's not forget that before unions people worked long hours for very little pay often in unsafe conditions and were dismissed for little or no cause and had no benefits such as retirement and insurance. Perhaps unions have overstepped but I think, in general they have done much to improve the lives of working people

Yes but Unions are not the problem.  It is a symptom of a much greater issue.  Inflation.

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#20    Frank Merton

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 04:29 AM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 06 September 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

Let's not forget that before unions people worked long hours for very little pay often in unsafe conditions and were dismissed for little or no cause and had no benefits such as retirement and insurance. Perhaps unions have overstepped but I think, in general they have done much to improve the lives of working people
I think unions take credit for what happened naturally as technology improved productive capacity and thereby permitted workers to get more pay.  If anything unions tended to prevent such progress.


#21    Purifier

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 05:34 AM

View Postdanielost, on 05 September 2013 - 11:15 PM, said:

Rasing minimum wage does increase poverty levels and number of people below the poverty line.


Why is this, you ask.  Because prices have to go up to cover the new wage.  Plus, those who didn't get a pay raise have just received a pay cut, do to the increase in prices.

Mcdonalds use to sell a double cheese burger, two patties and two slices of cheese.  Now they sell a mcdouble, with only one slice of cheese.  Serjento cheese keeps reducing the size of their cheese sizes, but sell the same number of slices.  Both of hese are examples of price increases.

The only way to raise people above poverty,   is job creation.  Which this president doesn't want to happen.  In fact with obama care th number of people below poverty will double(my opinion). Mainly do to so many jobs being reduced to 29.5 hours a week.



Prices have already gone up, Daniel, since the recession. Food wasn't as expensive as it is now, before then. That's partly why some low income wage earners, who work for a living, are on foodstamps, they can hardly afford the food prices of today with the current minimum wage of yesterday. Raise the minimum wage level and we will have less people on foodstamps, it's just that simple. And there will always be at least some poverty in this country, the ideals and beliefs behind capitalism does not guarantee 100% non-poverty for every single person in this country. Some haft to to take the hit of being the poor, in order for the system to work for others on their way to the top, there will never be enough jobs for every single individual in this country.

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#22    Yamato

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 05:42 AM

View Postacidhead, on 06 September 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

Yes but Unions are not the problem.  It is a symptom of a much greater issue.  Inflation.
Continuing to band-aid over the problems that government creates helps keep it in business.

Inflation is really the true culprit underneath.  But unfortunately, it's a political windfall to have the "raise the minimum wage!" issue come up every other election cycle.   It's a great way for government to not and say it did.  Unfortunately the helpful nature of these politics to the politicians means it'll be like performing root canals trying to get rid of them.

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#23    spacecowboy342

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 07:03 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 06 September 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

I think unions take credit for what happened naturally as technology improved productive capacity and thereby permitted workers to get more pay.  If anything unions tended to prevent such progress.
I completely disagree.Companies resisted change brought about by unions at every turn. Without unions things like overtime for over 40 hours and retirement plans would never have happened.People forget how deplorable conditions for workers were before unions. Now even non-union workers enjoy benefits won through hard struggles by unions and even violence against union members


#24    spacecowboy342

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 07:08 AM

View PostYamato, on 06 September 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:


Continuing to band-aid over the problems that government creates helps keep it in business.

Inflation is really the true culprit underneath.  But unfortunately, it's a political windfall to have the "raise the minimum wage!" issue come up every other election cycle.   It's a great way for government to not and say it did.  Unfortunately the helpful nature of these politics to the politicians means it'll be like performing root canals trying to get rid of them.
I can agree inflation is the culprit but why must workers be the ones who suffer? I made as much money or more in the eighty's than I do today while the cost of living has skyrocketed.It seems today everything is rigged so the investor class can gain more and more profit while wage earners work two jobs and can't make ends meet

Edited by spacecowboy342, 06 September 2013 - 07:09 AM.


#25    Br Cornelius

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 07:29 AM

Unions in the states have been the subject of coordinated propaganda campaigns by corporate interests. The demonetization of unions is a national sport, part and parcel of the great American dream/corporate nightmare.

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#26    Yamato

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 08:07 AM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 06 September 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

I can agree inflation is the culprit but why must workers be the ones who suffer? I made as much money or more in the eighty's than I do today while the cost of living has skyrocketed.It seems today everything is rigged so the investor class can gain more and more profit while wage earners work two jobs and can't make ends meet
I'm not sure of any unspoken rule that the workers "must suffer".   Thanks to our illustrious leaders in govt. employees have been given rights employers don't have, so I don't understand the sentiment.  

Class warfare?   Inflation harms the poor the most.  ;)

Edited by Yamato, 06 September 2013 - 08:09 AM.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#27    danielost

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:15 AM

Can a mod please change the first sentance from minimum wage does to minimum wage does not.

Thank you.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#28    danielost

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:21 AM

F3ss,  the only problem with the walmart protesters are that they are paid non-walmart employees.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#29    danielost

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:24 AM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 06 September 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:



Because the president doesn't want to help the nation's economy. That makes tons of sense. :rolleyes:

I love how you state that as if it's an absolute fact, like "the sky is blue", "rain is wet", "the president doesn't want that to happen". I didn't realize you were one of his most trusted advisers, privy to his every thought and belief.

I don't have to be an adviser. I only have to pay attention. Obama has stated, that it is better to put people on food stamps than for them to find jobs.  S for obama care again just pay attention to what is going on. Oh and stop watching msnbc, they twist the facts.

Edited by danielost, 06 September 2013 - 10:30 AM.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#30    danielost

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:37 AM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 06 September 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

Keeping the minimum wage low does hurt people. There are a lot of expenses that are not tied to wages. Rent, morgages, gas, electricity, auto insurance, car payments. Do you really think someone working for a minimum wage of $7.00 and hour is better off than someeone working for a minimum wage of $8.00 and hour?
Rent and morgages, go up due to paying higher costs of grass mowing, the price of electricity going up.

All those items you mentioned may not be directly tied to minimum wage but in directly they are.  Oh, and property taxes going up.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.




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