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Atlantis


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#2131    whitegandalf

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:36 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 14 April 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:



Because there's not a shred of evidence in support of such a contention. It's that simple.

cormac

Again why is lack of hard evidence, evidence itself that something doesent exist? History has again and again proven that lack of evidence there and then is not proof that something does not exist. 2 years ago we got finally proof that a pocket inside the ice during iceage was warm, with forest and animals. I can probably make a list of hundred other examples where lack of evidence has been just that, lack of evidence, not proof for something else.


#2132    docyabut2

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:36 AM

Atlantis had to be close to Athens.
Critias
Such was the vast power which the god settled in the lost island of Atlantis; and this he afterwards directed against our land.


#2133    whitegandalf

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:40 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 14 April 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

Atlantis had to be close to Athens.
Critias
Such was the vast power which the god settled in the lost island of Atlantis; and this he afterwards directed against our land.

The north sea is close to athen, if you have good ships. And took the shortcut trough black sea


http://upload.wikime...g_Expansion.svg

Edited by whitegandalf, 14 April 2013 - 02:49 AM.


#2134    Mario Dantas

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:42 AM

Posted Image



Edited by Mario Dantas, 14 April 2013 - 02:44 AM.

1. Catalog of Images
https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com

#2135    whitegandalf

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:44 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 14 April 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:



Because there's not a shred of evidence in support of such a contention. It's that simple.

cormac

So you do not concider the worlds ancient texts and myths as a sort of evidence?


#2136    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:56 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 14 April 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

Again why is lack of hard evidence, evidence itself that something doesent exist? History has again and again proven that lack of evidence there and then is not proof that something does not exist. 2 years ago we got finally proof that a pocket inside the ice during iceage was warm, with forest and animals. I can probably make a list of hundred other examples where lack of evidence has been just that, lack of evidence, not proof for something else.

The geological record as researched by the Deep Sea Drilling Project, Ocean Drilling Program as well as the Integrated Ocean Drilling Program have taken an extensive number of core samples from the Northern Atlantic and none of their samples support a claim for anything resembling Atlantis having existed. And said geological records extend back several million years. So are we to presume that said record, as relates to Atlantis, magically disappeared? Not possible.

Quote

So you do not concider the worlds ancient texts and myths as a sort of evidence?

Sure, they're evidence that we as a species have a fantastic imagination. BTW, your earlier claim (in part) as relates to Ancient Egypt having a legend of an ancient flood where the survivors made their way to Egypt and helped build the pyramids is an utter fabrication on the part of whomever actually claimed that. No such legend exists in any Ancient Egyptian text.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#2137    whitegandalf

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:13 AM

"the geological record as researched by the Deep Sea Drilling Project, Ocean Drilling Program as well as the Integrated Ocean Drilling Program have taken an extensive number of core samples from the Northern Atlantic and none of their samples support a claim for anything resembling Atlantis having existed. And said geological records extend back several million years. So are we to presume that said record, as relates to Atlantis, magically disappeared? Not possible."


They did not search for atlantis either, and i doubt very much they have mapped the entire ocean floor. I know that the relevant areas in the north sea has not been examined because the worlds largest fish resource lies here, and there is no way in hell norway would even concider drilling for oil and other resources in these places. There are plenty places not examined, besides the possible atlantis Cities sites would geographicly only cover under 0,1 percent of the ocean floor. And impossible to find unless they are incredible lucky. The seafloor is not mapped. Where are in case the maps? They are not available for the public atleast. We have much more knowledge of the backside of the moon and mars than our own ocean floor.

We know that several of landareas and island sank in the sea during the atlantis period. This is geological proven. This goes for the north sea too. Geological evidence for floods in the north sea is also plenty.

Edited by whitegandalf, 14 April 2013 - 03:18 AM.


#2138    Harte

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:23 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 14 April 2013 - 02:19 AM, said:

Some texts say in front, some say outside. Different translations i guess. The difference is huge.

"No evidence of any culture exists which can be shown to have conquered the eastern Mediterranean from an original location in or just outside the western Mediterranean"

A culture far away from the mediterian did conquer lands inside the mediterian two times in history. Once during bronseage and once during vikingage. Both were cultures based around the north sea.  Both times land and islands were qonqured in the west and east mediterian. And both times it was a seaculture who did it, like atlantis was supposed to be a seaculture. Im just saying if it happened twice, why not a third time earlier during stoneage?

http://upload.wikime...g_Expansion.svg

" because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island"

What is so specific about that? Could this description only be in front of the pillars?

Should you ever care to actually read Critias, you will find the following:

Quote

He (EDIT: Poseidon) also begat and brought up five pairs of twin male children; and dividing the island of Atlantis into ten portions, he gave to the first-born of the eldest pair his mother's dwelling and the surrounding allotment, which was the largest and best, and made him king over the rest; the others he made princes, and gave them rule over many men, and a large territory. And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic. To his twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus.
Critias (scroll approximately halfway down.)

Gades:

Quote

Cadiz (pron.:  SNIP ; Spanish Cádiz [ˈkaðiθ], locally: [ˈkaðis]  or [ˈka.i]; Phoenician גדר Gadir; Greek τΓάδειρα Gadeira, Latin: Gades, Arabic: قَادِس Qādis) is a city and port in southwestern Spain
Source

Cadiz (North of San Fernando, at left):
Posted Image

Pretty much locates the place, I'd say.

View Postwhitegandalf, on 14 April 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

So you do not concider the worlds ancient texts and myths as a sort of evidence?
There are no ancient myths anywhere in the world that concern Atlantis.

Obviously, ancient myths can have some root based in fact.  However, as there exist no such ancient texts about Atlantis (or anything even roughly similar to what Plato described,) it would appear that your argument above is specious, to put it kindly.

Harte

Edited by Harte, 14 April 2013 - 03:24 AM.

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#2139    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:26 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 14 April 2013 - 03:13 AM, said:

"the geological record as researched by the Deep Sea Drilling Project, Ocean Drilling Program as well as the Integrated Ocean Drilling Program have taken an extensive number of core samples from the Northern Atlantic and none of their samples support a claim for anything resembling Atlantis having existed. And said geological records extend back several million years. So are we to presume that said record, as relates to Atlantis, magically disappeared? Not possible."


They did not search for atlantis either, and i doubt very much they have mapped the entire ocean floor. I know that the relevant areas in the north sea has not been examined because the worlds largest fish resource lies here, and there is no way in hell norway would even concider drilling for oil and other resources in these places. There are plenty places not examined, besides the possible atlantis sites would geographicly only cover under 0,1 percent of the ocean floor. And impossible to find unless they are incredible lucky. The seafloor is not mapped. Where are in case the maps? They are not available for the public atleast. We have much more knowledge of the backside of the moon and mars than our own ocean floor.

We know that several of landareas and island sank in the sea during the atlantis period. This is geological proven. This goes for the north sea too. Geological evidence for floods in the north sea is also plenty.

They didn't have to search for Atlantis. All they had to do is establish what existed at any given timeframe of any of a number of core samples. None of which could be used to support the Atlantis tale. And the North Sea is entirely irrelevant to the story as, once again, it has a specific location and timeframe given for the original tale. As to where the core samples have been taken, see the following:

Attached File  Core samples from DSDP - ODP - IODP.jpg   137.83K   1 downloads

There's obviously alot more known than you're aware of.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 14 April 2013 - 03:26 AM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#2140    whitegandalf

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:41 AM

View PostHarte, on 14 April 2013 - 03:23 AM, said:



Should you ever care to actually read Critias, you will find the following:

Critias (scroll approximately halfway down.)

Gades:

Source

Cadiz (North of San Fernando, at left):
Posted Image

Pretty much locates the place, I'd say.

Gandalf: Atlantis must have been several islands, they probably hade a few island and bases in front of the pillars too, but the greeks and egyptians would have not have had detailed mapping over atlantis entire kingdom. But they would have known one of the largest and nearest atlantis bases that quite possible lied in front of the pillars. This change nothing.

Also this is ten thousand years ago+ so much of the texts we read today is not acurate, small words could have been different, changed over time, making a huge diffrence in todays atlantis and the one existed long ago.


There are no ancient myths anywhere in the world that concern Atlantis.

Gandalf: Yes there are, to many to mention. You should read more. Different names but same story.

Obviously, ancient myths can have some root based in fact.  However, as there exist no such ancient texts about Atlantis (or anything even roughly similar to what Plato described,) it would appear that your argument above is specious, to put it kindly.

Harte

If you look at this map you will see that it is entirely plausable that a north sea sea based culture could invade north africa, spain, italy, greece++

http://en.wikipedia....g_Expansion.svg


Edited by whitegandalf, 14 April 2013 - 03:49 AM.


#2141    whitegandalf

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:55 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 14 April 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:



They didn't have to search for Atlantis. All they had to do is establish what existed at any given timeframe of any of a number of core samples. None of which could be used to support the Atlantis tale. And the North Sea is entirely irrelevant to the story as, once again, it has a specific location and timeframe given for the original tale. As to where the core samples have been taken, see the following:

Attachment Core samples from DSDP - ODP - IODP.jpg

There's obviously alot more known than you're aware of.

cormac

So the entire geological experts in norway is wrong? The islands offf norway did not sink in the sea 10 000 years ago, and the tsunamies did not exist or happened after all. This is huge news!!!! Can you give me specific links that supports this?

I belive that this was a local not a global flood. Do your evidence dispute this?

That ancient texts can have inacuraties, like the position of their capital and local/global flood. Small words can totally change theese things.

Edited by whitegandalf, 14 April 2013 - 04:00 AM.


#2142    docyabut2

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:59 AM

Bury

Critias
And the name of his younger twin-brother,  who had for his portion the extremity of the island near the pillars of Herakles up to the part of the country now called Gadeira after the name of that region, was Eumelos in Greek, but in the native tongue Gadeiros,--which fact may have given its title to the country.

http://www.theoi.com...s/Atlantes.html


There also a island named melos in the agean

Posted Image


#2143    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 04:04 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 14 April 2013 - 03:55 AM, said:

So the entire geological experts in norway is wrong? The islands offf norway did not sink in the sea 10 000 years ago, and the tsunamies did not exist or happened after all. This is huge news!!!! Can you give me specific links that supports this?

Reading comprehension problems, huh? Must be, since I said:

Quote

And the North Sea is entirely irrelevant to the story as, once again, it has a specific location and timeframe given for the original tale.

Meaning that the original story of Atlantis has nothing to do with the North Sea. Plato gave Atlantis a specific location in his tales, which obviously was nowhere near the North Sea.

And just in case you're confused "Atlantis" is not a catch-all phrase for every possible place of prehistoric habitation by humans. It's a specific name of a specific place in a tale originally written by Plato.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#2144    whitegandalf

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 04:06 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 14 April 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

Bury

Critias
And the name of his younger twin-brother,  who had for his portion the extremity of the island near the pillars of Herakles up to the part of the country now called Gadeira after the name of that region, was Eumelos in Greek, but in the native tongue Gadeiros,--which fact may have given its title to the country.

http://www.theoi.com...s/Atlantes.html


There also a island named melos in the agean

Posted Image


A world dominating seaculture in stoneage with large cities must have large storable foodsource, if spain was it, what was their large food resource that made this place better than all other places on earth, and what renewable valuable trading goods that lasted for thousands of years did they had. North sea had both, which had spain area to offer, that made them the most powerfull sivilasation on earth?

Platon atlantis is one of many similar stories, if you only read platons atlantis, you would get a incomplete picture of the reality. But if you read the others, it is easy to see that something, that we do not know, happened in our past. Or at least ould have happened, based on the many stories.

Edited by whitegandalf, 14 April 2013 - 04:10 AM.


#2145    docyabut2

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 04:08 AM

Gades was named way after Plato.


Around 500 BC, the city fell under the sway of Carthage. Cadiz became a base of operations for Hannibal's[9] conquest of southern Iberia. However, in 206 BC, the city fell to Roman forces under Scipio Africanus. The people of Cadiz welcomed the victors. Under the Romans, the city's Greek name was modified to Gades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gades





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