226 replies to this topic

[questionmark]

Yamato, on 09 October 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

You've got it butt backwards.  The mining companies are benefiting right now thanks to you Keynesian lovers.   Prices of what they're digging out of the ground are skyrocketing thanks to warfare/welfare Statists.  I've never seen blindness to reality that I'm seeing here.

The mining companies are benefiting because the gold hamsters are distorting the market, under normal conditions half of the mining activities would be uneconomical.

If there is a gold standard the governments would have to buy whatever they had to have a growing economy at whatever price. And that is how we will substitute the banksters for diggers. Or the old poor church thing: on Saint Thomas day we take the cloth of Saint Jerome so Saint Tom is not naked.

That is not a solution, that is yesterday's error.

Edited by questionmark, 09 October 2012 - 07:53 PM.

[Yamato]

questionmark, on 09 October 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

The mining companies are benefiting because the gold hamsters are distorting the market, under normal conditions half of the mining activities would be uneconomical.

If there is a gold standard the governments would have to buy whatever they had to have a growing economy at whatever price. And that is how we will substitute the banksters for diggers. Or the old poor church thing: on Saint Thomas day we take the cloth of Saint Jerome so Saint Tom is not naked.

That is not a solution, that is yesterday's error.

Radical Keynesian nonsense.  

"Gold hamsters" are a natural reaction to the quantitative easing that is distorting the money market with zero percent interest rates, and what appears to be permanent stagflation how many lost decades long?   Life is short and I'm getting sick of this ponzi scheme prohibiting a real recovery.   The value of our money should be determined by all of the hamsters and all of their interests, not government coercion demanding perpetual inflation to perpetuity.  

The gold standard is a proven solution to stabilize the value of a currency, fiat tangents and blind faith in government notwithstanding.

[questionmark]

Yamato, on 09 October 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

Radical Keynesian nonsense.  

"Gold hamsters" are a natural reaction to the quantitative easing that is distorting the money market with zero percent interest rates, and what appears to be permanent stagflation how many lost decades long?   Life is short and I'm getting sick of this ponzi scheme prohibiting a real recovery.   The value of our money should be determined by all of the hamsters and all of their interests, not government coercion demanding perpetual inflation to perpetuity.  

The gold standard is a proven solution to stabilize the value of a currency, fiat tangents and blind faith in government notwithstanding.

Just imagine for a moment that you had not sunk your savings into gold and the think about it rationally.

[Yamato]

questionmark, on 09 October 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

Just imagine for a moment that you had not sunk your savings into gold and the think about it rationally.

I didn't sink my savings into gold.   I held cash and got my a$4 handed to me thanks to Keynesian crooks and their supporters who are the ones actually buying and holding gold.

Duh.

[Yamato]

[acidhead]

questionmark, on 09 October 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

If the gold price is controlled by the market then in a gold standard currency there is no constant value, if controlled by the government, who is to stop the government from assigning gold twice the value and print twice the money?

The only ones to benefit from a gold standard are the mining companies, everybody else will just get harmed by it, like in the past.

The market determines gold's value... not GOV.

In the past mining companies, like oil companies today, used GOV to influence the market for their own personal interest.  They had something everybody wanted.  But there is a huge difference.  The product sought after today is simply a commodity on the market.  Gold is not a commodity.  It has real value.  Value that will never vanish from the market.  That's where we are today.

The only thing that happened in the past was we replaced what worked with what sounded good.

[DieChecker]

Yamato, on 09 October 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

Radical Keynesian nonsense.  

"Gold hamsters" are a natural reaction to the quantitative easing that is distorting the money market with zero percent interest rates, and what appears to be permanent stagflation how many lost decades long?   Life is short and I'm getting sick of this ponzi scheme prohibiting a real recovery.   The value of our money should be determined by all of the hamsters and all of their interests, not government coercion demanding perpetual inflation to perpetuity.  

The gold standard is a proven solution to stabilize the value of a currency, fiat tangents and blind faith in government notwithstanding.

I'm still confused as to how we are going to go on a Gold Standard. Do you mean that currency would be backed, or that all transactions would be backed? Because if just currency, that would help, but as with any partial measure system using gold, such as the Swiss had a tthe end, the markets and government still have significant influence. And if you mean a complete economy gold standard, where is all this gold going to come from?

I mean if the US now has about 8000 tons stashed away, it would need several tens of thousands, or maybe a hundred thousand tons to back our active economy. The cost of collecting all that gold alone would put the US economy into a tailspin.

[Yamato]

DieChecker, on 10 October 2012 - 04:49 AM, said:

I'm still confused as to how we are going to go on a Gold Standard. Do you mean that currency would be backed, or that all transactions would be backed? Because if just currency, that would help, but as with any partial measure system using gold, such as the Swiss had a tthe end, the markets and government still have significant influence. And if you mean a complete economy gold standard, where is all this gold going to come from?

I mean if the US now has about 8000 tons stashed away, it would need several tens of thousands, or maybe a hundred thousand tons to back our active economy. The cost of collecting all that gold alone would put the US economy into a tailspin.

I'm saying back the US dollar with a gold standard.   That would be the currency.  

Nobody is going to want gold when the dollar is based on it because gold prices will go nowhere fast, and especially because nobody accepts gold for transactions.   What little demand for gold there will be can easily be met and arrangements can be made in a modern economy to accommodate someone's request on the global marketplace.   Conversely, people want gold under this fiat system and they want it badly.   I would put an end to gold's rise and an end to this gold rush immediately if I could and yet I'm the hamster.  If I was a gold hamster I'd be saying everything that questionmark and Br Cornelius are saying to keep the ponzi scheme going to perpetuity and make a mint for myself.

[DieChecker]

Yamato, on 10 October 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

I'm saying back the US dollar with a gold standard.   That would be the currency.  

Nobody is going to want gold when the dollar is based on it because gold prices will go nowhere fast, and especially because nobody accepts gold for transactions.   What little demand for gold there will be can easily be met and arrangements can be made in a modern economy to accommodate someone's request on the global marketplace.   Conversely, people want gold under this fiat system and they want it badly.   I would put an end to gold's rise and an end to this gold rush immediately if I could and yet I'm the hamster.  If I was a gold hamster I'd be saying everything that questionmark and Br Cornelius are saying to keep the ponzi scheme going to perpetuity and make a mint for myself.

But, isn't it also just as much a fact that whenever a depression or recession hits, people run to the banks and collect gold? Isn't that how the Great Depression got started?

What is the whole point to the Gold Standard anyway? To keep inflation down? Doesn't the fiat system allow the US to do this anyway? The only threat to that is if the world turns to another currency as the benchmark, which I'll give you, could happen. Yet, I can't see inflation really getting out of control with modern banking being what it is. It all revolves around a Conspiricy Theory that the Banking Gnomes are lulling us before they really reap the True Riches (Bwaa ha ha!!) and establish the NWO.

I just believe the world is a lot more egg white then that, and that fiat money will continue for another hundred years (In the US) with little trouble. Reading up on fiat money, I see where some nations degraded to trillions of units for a single dollar. But the conditions that caused those collapses just don't reasonably appear to be possible in the near or close distant future for the US. I just don't believe the Conspiricy, just as I don't believe the CIA killed Kennedy and the Moon Landings were fakes, and that Bush got the military to blow up the WTC in NY for 9-11.

[questionmark]

acidhead, on 10 October 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

The market determines gold's value... not GOV.

In the past mining companies, like oil companies today, used GOV to influence the market for their own personal interest.  They had something everybody wanted.  But there is a huge difference.  The product sought after today is simply a commodity on the market.  Gold is not a commodity.  It has real value.  Value that will never vanish from the market.  That's where we are today.

The only thing that happened in the past was we replaced what worked with what sounded good.

Which is precisely, as I am tired to repeat, the reason gold cannot determine the monetary value. Because the market would force the central bank to shorten or amply money supply according to the markets, not to the economical needs. The only viable way to do that is to barter actual gold for goods. But sadly there is not enough gold available on this planet to do that.

And, as I am also tired of repeating, a fiat gold standard is no different than a fiat currency. The only beneficiaries would be the mining companies as governments would be obliged to buy their gold at whatever price to enable economic growths. Exchange the banster for the minester. Brilliant idea.

[Yamato]

DieChecker, on 10 October 2012 - 05:42 AM, said:

But, isn't it also just as much a fact that whenever a depression or recession hits, people run to the banks and collect gold? Isn't that how the Great Depression got started?

What is the whole point to the Gold Standard anyway? To keep inflation down? Doesn't the fiat system allow the US to do this anyway? The only threat to that is if the world turns to another currency as the benchmark, which I'll give you, could happen. Yet, I can't see inflation really getting out of control with modern banking being what it is. It all revolves around a Conspiricy Theory that the Banking Gnomes are lulling us before they really reap the True Riches (Bwaa ha ha!!) and establish the NWO.

I just believe the world is a lot more egg white then that, and that fiat money will continue for another hundred years (In the US) with little trouble. Reading up on fiat money, I see where some nations degraded to trillions of units for a single dollar. But the conditions that caused those collapses just don't reasonably appear to be possible in the near or close distant future for the US. I just don't believe the Conspiricy, just as I don't believe the CIA killed Kennedy and the Moon Landings were fakes, and that Bush got the military to blow up the WTC in NY for 9-11.

It's only how the great depression got started when you ignore what already happened and think the people were running on the banks for no reason.

Whether the US dollar survives for another hundred years is not of interest to me.  What I'm interested in trying to fix is the horrible effects that massive government intervention into the markets will cause.   A hundred more years of suffering the consequences of a failed policy is nothing I find morally acceptable or politically tenable.

Thanks for that trip into conspiracy theory.  Always a trusty detour in a debate over policy.

The gold standard is easily administered.  Undoing Nixon Shock would be a first official step.   The idea being to get the dollar back on the map while it's still got the credibility left that it does.   Market sentiment is everything and ultimately the market will win this argument too.   The market always wins in the end and it always will.  If mankind blows himself back to the stone-age, the market will still reign supreme, and more so than ever.  Stop fighting it.  Stop tearing the bed like little piggies and then squealing because it got ripped, Keynesians.  That's not asking for much.

[Br Cornelius]

A market fundamentalist Ah!

I like my fundamentalists in the religious flavour - there far more entertaining

Br Cornelius

[Yamato]

Br Cornelius, on 10 October 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

A market fundamentalist Ah!

I like my fundamentalists in the religious flavour - there far more entertaining

Br Cornelius

When you get a $700,000 medical bill in the mail that your "insurance" got for you, and your life is destroyed and your entire family is wiped out financially, you can woot all the way to the welfare line then.  You can receive some of what you're asking for, instead of quietly and politely handing it all over to the financial class like an indoctrinated obedient worker.  

Crony capitalism and State capitalism are the problem.  The Gold Standard is an important solution.  It will put the clamp down on the ability these crooks and murderers have, these suit wearing policy makers who get away with it have, to run our country into the financial ground.  It means trillions of dollars less for starting wars and imposing bureaucratic will upon others creating hatred and resentment against us.   We give welfare away like it's going out of fashion in this country and the world doesn't respect us anymore.  It shows no gratitude.   Fear is the only motivator that works and I'd like to see a lot more conquering of enemies through friendship and trade than bribes and bullets.

Returning the government to our Constitutional roots, applying good legislation like trimetallic standards and balanced budget Amendments are becoming more and more necessary to keep America strong.   As our dollar erodes so does everything else that happens economically in dollars.   These underlying economic truths matter to me and so I want to apply our policy accordingly.  

Alliance with none; commerce with all should be our motto.  That's the effective motto of a major world power. When all we are is a trading partner to the foreigners who now hate us, our welfare will become grateful again.   When we set a good standard, the rest of the world will want to emulate us, and the democracies throughout the world are a powerful reminder of that.

It shouldn't be hard to understand that the marketplace should determine the price of oil, not endless commercial wars and back-rubbing bribes with disgusting oil barons who treat their people like dogs.

Edited by Yamato, 10 October 2012 - 07:02 PM.

[Br Cornelius]

You see - I see the market as the problem. All markets gravitate to a quasi Fascistic amalgam between state and corporation - its part of the genetics of capitalism.
This is why I find market fundamentalists to be vaguely comic since they pine for a perfect state of free market capitalism which has never existed in anything other than a text book.

Its fundamentally no different to the Theocratic state - all very good in theory - but never quite achieved perfectly enough to deliver the goods in reality.

As I have said before - I am a reality pragmatist - whatever delivers the goods.


Br Cornelius

[Yamato]

Br Cornelius, on 10 October 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

You see - I see the market as the problem. All markets gravitate to a quasi Fascistic amalgam between state and corporation - its part of the genetics of capitalism.
This is why I find market fundamentalists to be vaguely comic since they pine for a perfect state of free market capitalism which has never existed in anything other than a text book.

Its fundamentally no different to the Theocratic state - all very good in theory - but never quite achieved perfectly enough to deliver the goods in reality.

As I have said before - I am a reality pragmatist - whatever delivers the goods.


Br Cornelius

Accepting today's reality after all the power grabs are made, pragmatically accepting whatever works after whatever smoke and fires are started,  is the most docile and trouble-starting strategy for living I've heard yet.

The free market is brutal, sir.   And the difference between us quickly becomes whether or not we're willing to accept the consequences of our own actions and applying that standard consistently to politicians, corporations and individuals alike, or not.

And don't inject "perfection" into anything I've said yet.  It doesn't belong there.