147 replies to this topic

[Arbenol68]

Bluefinger, on 12 July 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

As timothy said in one of his posts, we are not that significant in the grand scheme of things.  If one were to look at our galaxy as a whole, they would not even notice our planet, much less the strife and agony occurring between the people there, it would justify what timothy said.

Men that question the grounds by which Christians believe question it from a worldview that has often never been criticized.  It seems like a big contradiction to me.  I interpret the humanist as saying what is important to him, and I see it all as a vanity if he is right.  If there is no God, then by what right, other than the one we give ourselves, do we have to criticize the way others live?  In the end, we will all end up the same.

  The question I would pose then, "Is life submit to our authority that we give it meaning or does life submit to one higher that we should be given meaning?"  If the former, then isn't life only as important as each man gives it and not truly important in reality?  If the latter, then are we not guilty of usurping God in the lives of others?

Sorry to snip your post but I just wanted to address a couple of you points.

It is absolutely true to say we are relatively insignificant when viewed on a galactic scale. The actions of one individual makes not a bit of difference when seen like that. But the key word here is 'relatively'. To each of us, our lives are hugely significant and what we do with them important. We extend this to those around us. Our families and friends, and those we easily empathise with. I believe this is the key that gives our lives a moral purpose. History has shown that it is easy for people to empathise with their own "kind". The Bible demonstrates this when viewed as a text that was written for ancient Hebrews. The ten commandments clearly only referred to their own 'kind'. As humanity has become aware of other peoples we have slowly expanded our 'kind' to include all of humanity (although admittedly there are many that are lagging in this regard).

Empathy is the foundation to all morals, I believe. I think it unfair to label this view as a vanity when it clearly (at least to me) isn't. It is about treating others the way we ourselves would want to be treated by others. These are the rules by which societies were founded. None can exist without it. Regardless of how we may disagree on the source of this, I'll bet that we agree on more than we disagree when it comes to moral principles. This in itself should tell you that a higher power is not the obvious answer as to why.

This is why I find your question a little strange. Life cannot be only as important as each man gives it because we don't live isolated from each other. We can only survive by cooperating. So life is as important as the collective society gives it. Individuals that make their own rules very quickly find themselves outcast.

Bluefinger, on 12 July 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

I completely agree.  There is no love in fear and no humanity in slavery to it.  I don't think God ever intended for us to remain in fear.  Christian thought did not develop along one line of thought and the history of the Christianity you often see is not a simple story.  To know it may free you from weak interpretations of Christian theology.

Fine. But if you need the promise of everlasting life to have 'sound' moral principles, it seems to amount to the same thing,.

[braveone2u]

Beckys_Mom, on 12 July 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

No...that is called a belief and how you want to see it... As you cannot ever ( in the month of Sunday ) prove this... then it will remain a belief and not proven fact ...  You can believe it is fact for you, but that doesn't in any way prove to everyone else that it is an actual fact.. To make it an actual scientific fact.. it would need to be something the living can actually observe.

To cut a long story short...

Again, like I said (the last loop), I'm the right person to ask. And I already congratualated you. You're on your way to seeing one, especially since you're so earnest about it -- that's what it takes. Oh yes, I'm not talking about that Ghost Hunters gig, either. You don't have to do this, but it would be nice if you could share your pilgrim's progress... Keep us updated, if you will.

There certainly is no "flesh is weak" in your case, as in "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." I, truly, am happy for you...but happiness is a relative term, when it comes to spirituality.

[braveone2u]

Beckys_Mom, on 12 July 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Death is part of life  for all.. not just religions..

Yeah, yeah -- you didn't need to dumb it down. We all know that. I was, however, talking about one of the things that bind established religions.

[Tesla II]

Religion is like a massive corporation it sells belief.. People buy it, they always have...fairytales. When i was young i was attending this " Holy classes " ( 1 hour per day,5 days in a week, it is called "verouk" in our language ) i was listening how mandkind was created by god and events later that took place, When i got to primary school
( first school after kindergarden ) i learned that mankind was created via primates, than i started to make my own beliefs and learned that what church teachs is half wrong.. It is all good that they teach that person needs to be good and not selfish and not greedy etc... But history WTF! If i would read the "holy" bible i would belive it as much as i would belive Stephen Kings " the fog " ... Talking bushes, hands from the sky, water going apart so one man could walk through... right so they were aliens atferall? ( jk ) Don't need a religion to live my life seriously my money could be donated to something more real and firm.. Or if you want to give it to some homeless people i bet they will make better use of it than church...even if they go and buy a bottle of wine... Do you know what church does with you money?

[braveone2u]

Nuke_em, on 12 July 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

Religion is like a massive corporation it sells belief.. People buy it, they always have...fairytales.

Fairytales make the truth easier to swallow. A really good story brings more but$$ in the seats. Once they're hooked, the "sky" is the limit. In the end, the Truth will set you free, kind of thing, because something in you will really dig deep to get it -- regardless of the cost. One step at a time.

Edited by braveone2u, 12 July 2012 - 09:16 PM.

[Beckys_Mom]

braveone2u, on 12 July 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

To cut a long story short...

Again, like I said (the last loop), I'm the right person to ask. And I already congratualated you. You're on your way to seeing one, especially since you're so earnest about it -- that's what it takes. Oh yes, I'm not talking about that Ghost Hunters gig, either. You don't have to do this, but it would be nice if you could share your pilgrim's progress... Keep us updated, if you will.

There certainly is no "flesh is weak" in your case, as in "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." I, truly, am happy for you...but happiness is a relative term, when it comes to spirituality.

You already congratulated me ?  ..I am on my way to seeing one?   Unless you have filmed one... then post it...other than that you have talked about your belief and not proven the soul exists...

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 12 July 2012 - 09:36 PM.

[braveone2u]

Beckys_Mom, on 12 July 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

You already congratulated me ?  ..I am on my way to seeing one?   Unless you have filmed one... then post it...other than that you have talked about your belief and not proven the soul exists...

As I mentioned earlier: "In order for a person to see a soul, one has to change one's destiny." Have patience, you will see one in this lifetime. Your destiny is already changing. Again, I am happy for you because I was like you at one time, believe it or not. Now, I can only say that I am ever so grateful, in spite of everything.

Peace.

[Beckys_Mom]

braveone2u, on 12 July 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

Your destiny is already changing. Again, I am happy for you because I was like you at one time, believe it or not. Now, I can only say that I am ever so grateful, in spite of everything.

What do you mean you are happy for me?  What are you actually saying?  I will see a soul? ....Are you suggesting  I  or someone else I know will die?

Please explain what it is you are happy about and what's with the congratulating me ? You are not clear in your posts...

Earlier in the thread  someone else posted a question you might not have seen... here it is below..

Karlis, on 12 July 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

braveone2u, are you saying that you have actually and literally died -- and your body decomposed? If so, could you please elaborate as to how you are now alive?

braveone2u...can you answer Karlis 's question.. for I too would like to read more of what it is you mean?  Thanks in advance

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 12 July 2012 - 11:03 PM.

[braveone2u]

If I had not detected your sincerity, I would not have answered your question. I am happy for you, for you are on the road to truth. Anything less is not worthy of our time. Spirituality is about spirit, after all. There's a line in Hellbound: Hellraiser: "It wanted souls, and I brought it you. You wanted to know... And I wanted everything. Now everybody's happy."

[Bluefinger]

Arbenol68, on 12 July 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

Sorry to snip your post but I just wanted to address a couple of you points.

It is absolutely true to say we are relatively insignificant when viewed on a galactic scale. The actions of one individual makes not a bit of difference when seen like that. But the key word here is 'relatively'. To each of us, our lives are hugely significant and what we do with them important. We extend this to those around us. Our families and friends, and those we easily empathise with.

I get that, and I'm not taking that away at all.  Humanists often tell Christians and other religious people that they have to provide objective facts about God before they claim that He is true.  However, when a Christian asks how the humanist finds life has any meaning, he may say, "It's all personal.  It's all relative."  By what grounds does he make statements like that?  That brings me back to my original argument.

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I believe this is the key that gives our lives a moral purpose. History has shown that it is easy for people to empathise with their own "kind". The Bible demonstrates this when viewed as a text that was written for ancient Hebrews. The ten commandments clearly only referred to their own 'kind'. As humanity has become aware of other peoples we have slowly expanded our 'kind' to include all of humanity (although admittedly there are many that are lagging in this regard).

Totally.  The OT was written to Jews.  Scholarly research has shown that the Torah was likely written down much later than Moses.  They have pointed it to the Babylonian Exile, which makes sense to the context of the books.  Anyway, before I go on a tangent, yes, I believe that we all have purpose, especially in the lives of others.  The New Testament testifies to that so much.

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Empathy is the foundation to all morals, I believe. I think it unfair to label this view as a vanity when it clearly (at least to me) isn't.

I wasn't trying to insult what is important to you.  I'm trying to speak objectively to humanists so that they can see how exactly they treat religious people often.  It really is a double standard.  They tell us to prove God's existence, regardless of the relevance of our arguments, yet they speak objectively about their beliefs without even blushing.

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It is about treating others the way we ourselves would want to be treated by others.These are the rules by which societies were founded. None can exist without it.

  No, not all.

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Regardless of how we may disagree on the source of this, I'll bet that we agree on more than we disagree when it comes to moral principles. This in itself should tell you that a higher power is not the obvious answer as to why.

  Not necessarily.  It could go the other way around and mean that God's personality is imprinted on us all because we are made in His likeness.

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This is why I find your question a little strange. Life cannot be only as important as each man gives it because we don't live isolated from each other.

  I hear your arguments.  I can understand how you find my question strange.  I guess I don't agree totally.  People die.  Everything dies.  That means that, while we are alive, we are interpreting everything happening to us.  If that is what life having meaning is about, then doesn't the meaning of life die with us?  And when the universe grows cold or resets, doesn't that make life a vanity?

Again, I'm not saying that I believe life is a vanity.  I think it is very very important.  I believe we are valuable, even to the least of us.  And that is why I cannot buy the humanist argument.  I am deeply concerned about the objective truths, things beyond our relative beliefs.  Humanists are ridiculing Christians left and right on this forum because they can't provide objective information about God, and the meaning of life for that matter.  And yet they don't ask for objective evidence about their own relative beliefs.  People are insulting and harming each other and their reputations over this conflict.  How does that point to morality?

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We can only survive by cooperating. So life is as important as the collective society gives it.Individuals that make their own rules very quickly find themselves outcast.

  And if we find ourselves alone, does that mean that our lives are meaningless then?  We are getting to a point where, no matter how close people are, they are still feeling alone.  Suicide shooting up through the roof.  And if we are all so cooperative, why is it that a few individuals in the government are more and more taking over caretaker roles?

I want to know if life has purpose even when I'm at most lonely state.  That is what I mean by objective.  If we just talk about relative issues, then that doesn't properly address the social issues that we originally argue about.

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Fine. But if you need the promise of everlasting life to have 'sound' moral principles, it seems to amount to the same thing,.

I don't need everlasting life to have sound moral principles.  It isn't about that to me.  At all.  That is more like Tertullian's legalistic theology.  I follow Iranaeus' liberation theology more.

[braveone2u]

Beckys_Mom, on 12 July 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

What do you mean you are happy for me?  What are you actually saying?  I will see a soul? ....Are you suggesting  I  or someone else I know will die?

One thing about the "flow": It's not a vindictive power. In fact, It is love beyond compare. I went through harsh times because I was a hard shell to crack open...and the fact that I really asked to know the truth, without it being watered-down. It's not over yet, until it's really over.

You, on the other hand, seem like a sweet seeker. I sensed your sincerity, and I was moved. Nothing you can't handle will ever be fall you. The "flow" is not petty; It wants everyone to be free, however.

Peace.

Edited by braveone2u, 12 July 2012 - 11:36 PM.

[Beckys_Mom]

braveone2u, on 12 July 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

One thing about the "flow": It's not a vindictive power. In fact, It is love beyond compare. I went through harsh times because I was a hard shell to crack open...and the fact that I really asked to know the truth, without it being watered-down. It's not over yet, until it's really over.

You, on the other hand, seem like a sweet seeker. I sensed your sincerity, and I was moved. Nothing you can't handle will ever be fall you. The "flow" is not petty; It wants everyone to be free, however.

Peace.

Look if you cannot answer straight simple questions  just say so.. you do not need to post up more  weird gibberish  that doesn't address a thing I have asked you.. And we know you cannot prove a soul exists.. so it is best left at that

[Super-Fly]

I like the OP's question, loads of answers and questions.

But i belive in what i do, see and hear, what that is, is a mystery to me.
loads of answers to it, but it leads to arguments/debates.

untill i see a god, alien, fairy whatever, then i might think, yeh fair play.

untill then mines a gin, see you on the ice.

nice post OP.

[braveone2u]

Beckys_Mom, on 12 July 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

Look if you cannot answer straight simple questions  just say so.. you do not need to post up more  weird gibberish  that doesn't address a thing I have asked you.. And we know you cannot prove a soul exists.. so it is best left at that

Like I said, have patience. It has something to do with your destiny. It's a process.

[Beckys_Mom]

braveone2u, on 12 July 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

Like I said, have patience. It has something to do with your destiny. It's a process.

Like I said, it is your own belief  and nothing more...As for the dodging of questions asked by myself and others.. I feel no further need to continue this with yourself.. No offence..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 13 July 2012 - 12:08 AM.