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Madrid 3/11


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#31    Ann

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 11:28 AM

Darling, check your logic.

By your logic I can draw it further. Spain got exactly what it deserved, as the US. Innocent people in Iraq have died because of the war, a war that Spain supported. Many of the actions taken by the US foreign policy can be perceived as terror. Many actions by governments can be considered as terror. A matter of fact, you can attach the word terror to almost every country in the world.

As for what you said about “Israelis attacks on Palestinian settlements have all the other hallmarks of blatant terrorism”, and attacking “innocent civilian targets” that’s hardly the whole truth, but you seem to have made up your mind about that already.

Maybe you need to look closely at what is terror and the dangers of it in the 21 century. Is there a difference between two sides in a conflict and what happened in Madrid?



#32    Fenris

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 11:40 AM

Not at all.... If they had assassinated the guy who made the decision to back the war THEN you may have a point, they didn't, they targeted innocent civilians.

Same with Israel, had they used their extensive inteligence agency (One of the best in the world) to track down the individuals actualy engauged in terrorist actions and went it to execute them, then that would have been justifiable.... they didn't, they move their troops and tanks into settlements of palestinian civilians and open fire!

It doesn't matter if the people are white, black, yellow, green with purple spots, innocent civillians are supposed to have rights in this supposedly civilised world.... those rights include not being blown into individual pocket-sized body parts.

When the British troops perpetrated an act of terror against the Irish civilian population (Bloody Sunday) the government took steps to try and ensure it didn't happen again.... (And is subsequently being addressed in the courts) the act of a government....

When the israeli's do it... they simply shrug and say "They brought it on themselves"... "We will do it again".... sorry but no matter how you dress it up, those are the actions of terrorists.

Just how many UN resolutions is israel currently in breach of? I've lost count?

In the dead of night
A shimmewin' wight
Gweem of a bwade
And dah devew was paid
When dah axe comes down
A chiwin' sound
Steel hits da head
Anothaw wabbit's dead
I'm a wabbit swayer
A guitaw pwayaw
With a nasty habbit

Kill dah wabbit!!! (hah hah hah)
AhhhaahooOhhh

I'm a mean mistweetah
A wabbit feastah
And I pwedict
A bwoody Eastaw
A scuwowing shadow
And dah shadow was dis wabbit
And dah night air echoes
Kill dah wabbit!!!
Kill dah wabbit!!!
.........................

#33    Ann

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 11:59 AM

I keep telling myself ‘ignore him… ignore him…” but you really are a one-sided misinformed person.

Israel does go after people who are responsible to terror acts within Israel. It does not go into settlements of Palestinian civilians and open fire into unarmed population.

Terrorists hide in the occupied territories, among civilians. Imagine that you have a neighbor village where bombs are being made, people are getting ready to cross the border and kill your civilians, by the means of terror – what would you do? What would other countries do? I’m not arguing that Israel had not, and is not making mistakes, but the same can be said for both sides.

You are blind to the fact that you have a double standard here and you should really ask yourself why is that.



#34    Kira

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 12:07 PM

Ok now I'm going to have to step in and say that
QUOTE
Ann Posted on Mar 13 2004, 11:59 AM
  I keep telling myself ‘ignore him… ignore him…” but you really are a one-sided misinformed person.
is not really a subjective part of an argument.
If all parties would keep to the facts rather than letting this slide in a name calling slanging match.. then it will be interesting to see how this goes.

BUT be warned: IF it does turn into one then I or someone else will have no qualms about shutting it down.. I hope I am making myself clear to all parties.. thank you.. original.gif

Edited by Celticwitch, 13 March 2004 - 12:07 PM.

We do what we do because of who we are. If we did otherwise, we would not be ourselves.

#35    Erikl

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 01:18 PM

QUOTE
is not really a subjective part of an argument.
If all parties would keep to the facts

Celticwitch, Ann couldn't br more right. Fenris is the one who is not keeping to the facts. Unfurtunately, he is one of millions who believe that Israel is a terrorist country. I'll have to give that to the PLO and the states the supports them - you have one hell of a propaganda system.
As for UN resolutions - when was the last time the UN passed resolution which is in favor of Israel in the Arab-Israeli conflict? the UN is just as one-sided as Fenris is.
Regarding name-callings - what Ann said isn't more insulting then what Fenris said earlier:

"Looks like they aren't the only ones stuck with a medevil mind-set"

"Your entire possition seems built on ignorance, rhetoric and knee jerk reactions as well as a few things that I'd only be speculating on if I went into... so I won't"

So be fair - if your'e going to make a remark regarding Ann's sayings (which I don't find it to be offending in anyway, comparing what Fenris said).

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#36    Fenris

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 01:29 PM

Ann dear, so far you've at least tried to present a coherent argument... I may disagree vehamently with it, but its far more enjoyable to debate with. Lets try keeping it coherent and in the relms of a debate/discussion original.gif

if you really believe they don't open fire on innocent civilian targets then I do wonder about the quality of news coverage you have been getting. Of course they make claims of going after terrorists... but if they knew where the terrorists where, with their massive advantage in equipment and personel it would be simplicity itself to go in an get them with minimum collateral damage.

Its only a matter of months since I was sat here watching BBC coverage of an Israeli tank opening fire on a palastinian settlement (Not a sustained bombardment, but several rounds into normal housing). There was NO returning fire! Not even rifle fire let alone anything that would threaten a tank.

Their actions amount to systematic terrorising and oppression of the palestinians (Sure, there are terrorists on the other side too... Just as not all Israeli's even agree with the actions of their government, nor do MOST of the palestinians agree with the terrorists) and as for whether that amounts to terrorism, I leave you with Dictionary.coms definition of the word.... it certainly applies from where I'm looking from.

Terrorism
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

I won't be replying for a week or so (Holiday). Have fun original.gif

In the dead of night
A shimmewin' wight
Gweem of a bwade
And dah devew was paid
When dah axe comes down
A chiwin' sound
Steel hits da head
Anothaw wabbit's dead
I'm a wabbit swayer
A guitaw pwayaw
With a nasty habbit

Kill dah wabbit!!! (hah hah hah)
AhhhaahooOhhh

I'm a mean mistweetah
A wabbit feastah
And I pwedict
A bwoody Eastaw
A scuwowing shadow
And dah shadow was dis wabbit
And dah night air echoes
Kill dah wabbit!!!
Kill dah wabbit!!!
.........................

#37    bathory

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 01:34 PM

QUOTE
If you can deal with the root causes that bring new recruits into their fold then you can act to reduce and even stop it over time...... and frankly THAT is absolutely the only way you will ever beat these people.


the problem is that these fanatics simply represent a tiny minority trying to impose their will on a greater community.  


#38    Kira

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 01:58 PM

Ok I'm going to repeat myself ONCE!

QUOTE
Erikl Posted on Mar 13 2004, 01:18 PM
  QUOTE 
is not really a subjective part of an argument.
If all parties would keep to the facts 


IF you are going to quote me please do it so a) it makes sense cool.gif not so subjectively as to put your view across!

What I did say was.....
QUOTE
Celticwitch Posted on Mar 13 2004, 12:07 PM

If all parties would keep to the facts rather than letting this slide in a name calling slanging match.. then it will be interesting to see how this goes.


notice the ALL in that...

In fairness you have been guilty of the same thing as has Fenris.

As for keeping to the facts... it seems that all the parties concerned have done their homework and are coming from different angles... which makes a debate... not an arguement.
thank you.

We do what we do because of who we are. If we did otherwise, we would not be ourselves.

#39    Erikl

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 02:35 PM

but you did quote Ann, so it seemed as you refer to her sayings as call-namings, instead that of Fenris which were much more harsh (as compare to what Ann said).
Anyhow I do agree that name-calling and bashing is unacceptable - check my earlier post to Fenris.


You didn't have to repeat the whole quote..... disgust.gif

EDIT: sorry about that  rolleyes.gif  

Edited by Erikl, 13 March 2004 - 03:08 PM.

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"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#40    Ann

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Posted 13 March 2004 - 05:48 PM


Sorry if it seemd like name-calling. I think that what Erykl and I are trying to say is that when someone, like Fenris, refers to the Israeli government, and the Israeli government alone as a government of terrorist, that’s crossing a very sensitive line.
Somehow, every discussion about terrorism result in someone saying that Israel is at the center of it all. And that’s dangerous.
I can go into long explanations of the politics of Israel and the Palestinians, with Iran and Syria thrown in, and how misleading seeing something on the BBC can be, how silly it is to think that Israel has the best intelligence in the world, but the discussion did start on terror. And what is scary is that some European countries (the US have changed its mind after 9/11) don’t understand that modern terror is something quite different. It’s not really all your dictionary tells you, concepts change as the exact meanings of words.

Once a suicide-bummers terror is accepted in one place, as in the ever popular saying that Israel deserves it, being a terrorists country itself, other groups accept it as well. Over ten years of it in Israel made it possible for what is happing now in the rest of the world, at least partly. If you accept that someone deserves this kind of terror, you can’t control who will be hurt by it next. Terror by stats is different than the terror that we have to face now. Now it’s an ideology based terror, which morally finds the means of mess murder accepted.
There is a huge gap between this kind of thinking and what European countries are trying to achieve (meaning moving towards peaceful ways of resolving conflicts). Israel is a democracy, and the only one at its area. Many people don’t understand yet that this more broad-scale terror has at least achieved one of its goals by them labeling Israel like that and not seeing the real danger at their own doorstep.

Hope it's more clear now - But please, stop calling me dear.  


#41    Erikl

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Posted 15 March 2004 - 02:51 PM

Ann you are obsolutely right  thumbsup.gif

And here's some more info about the so-called "non-compliance of Israel to UN resolutions":

Is it true that Israel is in violation of UN resolutions?

What is the evidence that the United Nations is biased against Israel?

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#42    jimma

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Posted 15 March 2004 - 03:06 PM

QUOTE (Erikl @ Mar 12 2004, 08:14 PM)
QUOTE
Just what are Al Quida's intentions? What would it take for them to claim victory and lay down their weapons?

Do they have any demands?

Their plans are to conquer the world, plain and simple.  ph34r.gif

Yeah, I know a country like that too!


#43    Erikl

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Posted 15 March 2004 - 06:43 PM

QUOTE
Yeah, I know a country like that too!


Very mature...  disgust.gif  

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"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"




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