158 replies to this topic

[TheBanana]

Mr Walker, on 18 November 2012 - 12:52 AM, said:

Hi banana Couldnt respond to your post as posted, but a few points.

Opinions dont grow from within  without external data and opinion. A parents job is to provide opinion data etc. A parents life experiences and wisdoms should be transfered to a child  through stories converstions rules expectations etc., to give a foundation for their life.  If I believe in certain ethics for good reasons then i want my childen to have the same ethics for the same good reasons, so i teach them, before they can develop less constructive ones.

yeah, i know that opinions dont grow on their own, which is why i would like any child of mine to have a good variety of life experiences and meet a variety of different people so they can grow their own. yeah, they can know my opinions, but know that they dont have to follow them and i will not think of them less if they choose not to. the thing is, there is no ethics and morals that come from me that couldnt come from religion, im already a pretty moral person where it actually matters and the only things religion adds are more insignificant rules that dont really affect your morality (like some religions dont allow you to eat and drink certain things, and of course prayer and stuff........and some teach homophobia and discrimination but honestly i dont think any child raised in my house could ever turn out that way).

Empathy, like love, has to be taught to children though demonstration or verbalisation. While humans a re capable of these things they are learned as a part of our socialisation. I agree that, more important than anything else, is a paren'ts role to teachh a child how to love and feel empathy

which doesnt have to come through religion. just cause you dont raise your child in a religion, doesnt mean you let them do whatever they want and let them be violent and do drugs. there are some religious parents who completely fail on the whole love and empathy thing and teach their children hate, so raising a child religious doesnt always mean its good.
Wha tis wrong or harmful? My parents would have kicked me out of home at about 15 if i had smoked, done drugs, etc at home because of the influence it would have had on my younger siblings I understood that then and agreed with them, but another child might not. Their values might conflict with their parents and the only solution is for them to leave. A family can't compromise its ethics and standards just to keep a child at home. That is not a religious viewpoint  but a philosophical one.

but its a tiny little difference in opinions. yeah, if the teenager is violent, or is a drug addict or is doing something that does put the other children at risk, then yeah, they can go live somewhere else........but is religion really a big enough reason, the only difference is that they arent going to be coming to church on sundays. is it really a big deal? just cause theyre no longer following your religion, doesnt mean that theyre suddenly going to start killing people, doing drugs and having sex with anything that moves.


i dont see why not following your religion is a good reason to kick a child out of the house. not following your religion doesnt cause them to do anything evil. it wont cause any harm to the other kids. they may get exposure to another opinion, but is that really such a bad thing? any open minded parent (not of the super controlling fundie sort who shelters their child from any opinion other than their own) can easily explain to their children, and it could be a great learning moment.

kid: why doesnt _______ go to church?
parent: because she is atheist, which means she does not believe in god. i believe in god because of.....but not everyone does. other people have different opinions and thats okay.

or

parent: instead of going to church, she goes to mosque, because she is a muslim. there are many other different religions in the world, as some people choose to worship god in different ways to us. i follow christianity because it feels right to me, i read the bible and i believe it to be true.

see, a way for a child to both know the parent's opinions, but also understand that others dont share them. simple and to the point, and this is how i am going to teach my children about the differing opinions of the people of the world (not just religion, there are loads of different situations a talk like that could be useful). also teaching them appropriate ways to talk to other people about their beliefs and ask them questions without offending them is a good skill, its always good to be able to debate

I never mentioned fear of hell. Religious ethics and morality have little to do with hell, and more with how and why we should live our lives. Religious beliefs are philosophical beliefs and the ethics of religions are basic human ethics and moralities. Religion provides a powerful positive motivation for people to live in a constructive and loving way.

yes, religion does provide a motivation, and hell is of course not the only part of it, theres heaven as well, and also just thinking of what jesus would want them to do...its not the only way though, there are many different paths to follow in life that are also moral.
Hell was added as a fear factor to christianity by the cathiolic church many centuries ago  It does more harm than good. Christ (the founder of christianity by default) teaches us how to live as individuals and as members of our society. It is not the only ethicla system around but it is a very constructive and effective one.

yeah, i dont agree with the whole "do this or you will go to hell" idea. fear can motivate people to do good, but its not a very good motivator, people shouldnt only do things because theyre afraid of the consequences (both religious "i dont want to go to hell" or consequences in this life "i dont want to go to jail"), but because they think it is the right thing to do. yes, following a religion is an effective way of teaching morals and ethics, theres loads of stories in various holy books about people who do the morally right thing to do and provide life lessons, but of course its not the only ethical system................but if you truly believe its not the only ethical system, why did you say above that a parent is justified in kicking their child out of the house if they didnt have the same religious opinions?

[Orcseeker]

Beckys_Mom, on 17 November 2012 - 11:49 PM, said:

Beliefs cannot exist without the people

Exactly. We get rid of the problem (blind ignorance and possibly mental ailments) and we should be free of radical extremists.

[Beckys_Mom]

Orcseeker, on 18 November 2012 - 11:31 PM, said:

Exactly. We get rid of the problem (blind ignorance and possibly mental ailments) and we should be free of radical extremists.

You said beliefs are not the problem, it's the people..  You now agree that without the people there can be no beliefs.. So how do you suggest the problem can be solved?

[JGirl]

CelestialStar, on 16 November 2012 - 04:21 AM, said:

Some parents force their religion on their kids, in example, some christian parents dragging their child to church every Sunday and will punish the child for expressing disbelief or not wanting to go. Is it fair....no. is it right........no.
What are your thoughts on the matter, remember, we are not here to argue, just to calmly express our thoughts on the matter.

Did you ever notice that kids aren't born worshiping, they are most times forced to do so,
religion isn't innately known at birth, it is to me seemingly forced down the throats of innocent children at a young age.
Sometimes, a religion forced can cloud judgement and cause hatred to appear toward others.....Your thoughts?

i used to go to church and i used to take my children with me. when the time came that they didn't want to go, that was the last time they did.
i would never force a child to believe something just because i did. i do think it's important to get them started on their own spiritual journey, but where that leads is entirely up to them.

[cloudsinthesky]

The way I see it, belief should be a personal thing and not forced upon everyone by other people. You should get to believe what you want, try it out and see how it affects you and the people around you. Forcing everyone to believe in one thing isn't right.

[JGirl]

cloudsinthesky, on 19 November 2012 - 04:21 AM, said:

The way I see it, belief should be a personal thing and not forced upon everyone by other people. You should get to believe what you want, try it out and see how it affects you and the people around you. Forcing everyone to believe in one thing isn't right.

i agree. in any case i really don't understand how a person could be forced to believe anything. belief is voluntary and deliberate on the part of the person doing the believing. if it's not in the heart it's not there.

[sarah_444]

As a kid I was forced to go to church only when my grandparents (who lived out of town)were around. It was out of respect for them and I remember the guilt trips and lectures ( intended to shame us into going more) we were given about not attending mass weekly.  I could never do that with my own kids. Even as a kid it never felt right to be forced into something that was supposed to be about love. I am grateful my parents did encouraged me to pray, because it did help me develop my own spirituality. They would discuss any  faith with me always, but most importantly they taught me to think for myself and encouraged me to to explore other religions when I showed interest in them.

I agree too that belief or non belief is extremely personal.  I'm not religious, but that wouldn't stop me from allowing my kids to attend mass if they showed serious interest, just as well as I wouldn't force them to be there if I was religious.

[Orcseeker]

Beckys_Mom, on 19 November 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

You said beliefs are not the problem, it's the people..  You now agree that without the people there can be no beliefs.. So how do you suggest the problem can be solved?

Well those types of people I have outline are usually the forefront of such beliefs so yes what I said initially still stands with my contention.

How can we solve this problem? Education and providing the necessary help to the mentally ill.

[Beckys_Mom]

Orcseeker, on 19 November 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

How can we solve this problem? Education and providing the necessary help to the mentally ill.

For anyone who is too far gone into their beliefs, what you suggest will cost a lot of money.. The majority of the worlds population  ( billions )  all believe in some sort of higher power.. So, how do you determine who is  what you call 'mentally ill' ?  To add -    Who would give the authority  to screen them, to find out if they are mentally ill or not?

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 19 November 2012 - 12:38 PM.

[Orcseeker]

Beckys_Mom, on 19 November 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

For anyone who is too far gone into their beliefs, what you suggest will cost a lot of money.. The majority of the worlds population  ( billions )  all believe in some sort of higher power.. So, how do you determine who is  what you call 'mentally ill' ?  To add -    Who would give the authority  to screen them, to find out if they are mentally ill or not?

Not suggesting to screen everyone, but those who show radical extremist tendencies.

Extremist behaviour is not good on either side and I can't say I'd know a fullproof method for any authority to conduct such, perhaps family members could admit them (like the normal system goes I believe). Implementing education into schools about practising religion sensibly.

The main reason for the spreading of extremist behaviour is due to the wrong thing being told to impressionable people. Also as I said ignorance, whether intentional or inability to get a proper education.

[Tommy13]

It's called indoctrination. This is how you join any cult, I mean religion.

[freetoroam]

Orcseeker, on 19 November 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

Well those types of people I have outline are usually the forefront of such beliefs so yes what I said initially still stands with my contention.

How can we solve this problem? Education and providing the necessary help to the mentally ill.

These mentally ill, were they mentally ill before or after converting to a religion?

Tommy13, on 19 November 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

It's called indoctrination. This is how you join any cult, I mean religion.

you were right the first time.

Edited by freetoroam, 19 November 2012 - 01:50 PM.

[Beckys_Mom]

Orcseeker, on 19 November 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Not suggesting to screen everyone, but those who show radical extremist tendencies.

Kidnap them and treat them all?   lol..  Just kidding.. so tell me how do you get them all into treatment?   Who pays for all of this ?

Do you not think it will cause more trouble than it's worth ?

[freetoroam]

Orcseeker, on 19 November 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Not suggesting to screen everyone, but those who show radical extremist tendencies.

Here in England we have problems sending certain people with radical extremist tendencies back to their own countries, can you imagine telling they have to go on a training course, and will have to be screened  (which is not Pakistan  related) ?

[Orcseeker]

freetoroam, on 19 November 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

These mentally ill, were they mentally ill before or after converting to a religion?

That depends on the individual. For example, the religion grew to an obsession and that grew from there due to their susceptibility to mental illness. Or they were already mentally ill and their radical take on their newfound religion is not exactly doing them any favours in their current mental state either.