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Could Atlantis be under Greenland's Ice?


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#361    Abramelin

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:24 AM

Mario,

You will have to show us proof of some sort of geological process  that explains how a huge island the size of Greenland was able to plow through the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, and then end up near the Arctic without changing shape.

You have never even considered to deal with that little problem, right?

You just post tomes of text and lots of pics, and by that hope all of us will be swamped enough to forget about asking you for details.

Nah, that won't work.

Explain the geological process of how Greenland could end up where it is now.

No asteroid impact could be an explanation.


#362    cormac mac airt

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:41 AM

View PostMario Dantas, on 19 November 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

I mentioned "instantaneously", as that is what was referred to by Plato (e.g.in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth...). This hypothetic event is not to be tested, in my experiment, under the "canonic" chronological timescale. Geochronology cannot be taken into account!

Regarding Timaeus not having said this or that (btw you are correct), what i can tell you is that they (Timaeus and Critias) were together when Socrates first demands whether someone knew of a similar story as the one proposed in the Republic dialog. Timaeus dialog only makes mention to Atlantis in one single paragraph. It is one single story told by the two dialogs and every bit of information is supposed to be one and the same.

Regarding the Indian geological movement (millions of years) being or not in any way related to the human timeframe, or Atlantis (as you put it), is, again, not to be taken into consideration, in this experiment.

Regards,
Mario Dantas

Your ignoring the geochronology of the North Atlantic and any relationship to humans is irrelevant to the facts. Which means you're still playing "lets pretend".

You're constrained by the story as it is written, not by what you want it to say.

Yours is not an experiment, it's a writing of fiction pretending to be reality.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#363    Mario Dantas

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:27 AM

View PostQuaentum, on 16 November 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

Absence of evidence neither validates nor supports any hypothesis or belief.  Further, willful ignorance of facts, combined with absence of evidence, insures the failure of any hypothesis.

Quaentum,

All i wanted to say was that you cannot deny categorically that an event did not take place, just because there are no evidences, yet...

View PostHarte, on 16 November 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Of course it is.  Are you claiming that the concept of "evidence of absence" cannot possibly have any validity?  If not, then what, exactly, would constitute evidence of absence?
If so, then please lay out your logical process for arriving at such a loony idea as there not possibly existing any evidence of absence of anything.  After all, if absence is impossible to prove, we are really in a tight spot.

As a teacher, I take roll every day.  What justification do I have for marking a student absent, if not the absence of evidence for his presence?

Absence of evidence is the only possible evidence for the absence of a thing.  Your quote of Sagan (yes, that's who you were quoting) ignores the very real fact that he was being sarcastic when he said that.

Playing word games is evidence of a weak argument.  However, in your case, since you have no actual argument here (only a "let's pretend" scenario,) I suppose that's okay.

Harte

Harte,

Touche!

I noticed you also mentioned my using the famous phrase:

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

You are equivocated since i did not even know Hawkings had first said it. I actually do not know who said first, although wikipedia claims Martin Rees, a cosmologist, to actually have made it:

"Carl Sagan criticized such "impatience with ambiguity" using cosmologist Martin Rees' maxim, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."[3]

http://en.wikipedia....ence_of_absence

Nevertheless, you are correct that our every day lives, and ultimately science, depends on such "judgments", that is that absence of evidence is in fact evidence of absence. But before Columbus found America, people would vehemently deny the existence of another continent (America), since there was no evidence that it might have existed, until its discovery later on...

I am not playing any "word games". On the contrary, i believe words must be uttered meaningfully, in order to avoid any confusions in the future. English is not my mother tongue, and therefore, if i sound "un-normal" to you is because of this.

PS: Regarding the absence of evidence of the presence of a student in a classroom, i could argue that under the principle of Parsimony (lex parsimoniae) :

"Occam's razor is the law of parsimony, economy, or succinctness. It is a principle stating that among competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions should be selected"

The simpler hypothesis are usually chosen but can be, at times, wrong. The student could be present in the classroom e.g. hidden inside a closet, and therefore, out of the teacher's sight. The "closet" hypothesis would not be the simpler existing answer and, consequently, would be discarded, although it would represent the true student attendance, in that classroom.

Regards,
Mario Dantas

1. Catalog of Images
https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com

#364    Mario Dantas

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:44 AM

deleted

Edited by Mario Dantas, 19 November 2012 - 01:46 AM.

1. Catalog of Images
https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com

#365    Quaentum

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:36 PM

View PostMario Dantas, on 19 November 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

Quaentum,

All i wanted to say was that you cannot deny categorically that an event did not take place, just because there are no evidences, yet...
Regards,
Mario Dantas
It is not the lack of any evidence to support your hypothesis that is as important as what we do know about the Earth and it's geography, archeology and paleontology that allows us to deny your hypothesis as plausible.

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#366    DieChecker

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:49 PM

View PostMario Dantas, on 18 November 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

Well, i intend to demonstrate that there is a great coincidence of facts and when you put them under a different "light"and "perspective", you can predict geologic events that happened in different chronological periods in the north Atlantic region. My theory can explain why is there sand in the Sahara, or an Atlas range, in front of Gibraltar.

There is sand in the Sahara due to desertification.

You can demonstrate your facts all day long, and I agree with some of your assumptions and conclusions... But only by completely ignoring glaring, totally undenighable facts, such as the timeline of human activitys and the known geology of Greenland.

The Jedi say everything is a matter of perspective... So they can feel better about openly lying to people.

Quote

But i disagree with what you said:

"Science does not need to be flawed or wrong in order to be have data and knowledge Added to it"

of course it does have to have flaws, since nobody is perfect, right?...
But the requirement of science being wrong to move forward is not true. Regardless of science is wrong on many subjects.... All subjects can be moved forward by new data and observations. All science can be built up upon regardless of it anything is actually wrong.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#367    DieChecker

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:52 PM

View PostMario Dantas, on 19 November 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

Regarding the Indian geological movement (millions of years) being or not in any way related to the human timeframe, or Atlantis (as you put it), is, again, not to be taken into consideration, in this experiment.

I think your comparison with the Indian sub-continent is a faulty one since there is clear evidence off shore of how, when and where India was moving. Something we have not seen in the Atlantic other then within the already shown hundreds of millions of years timeline for the geology of Greenland.

Even if you could show the movement of India was relational to Greenland, you'd still have to show that humans were around and formed societies and a tool using culture.

Edited by DieChecker, 19 November 2012 - 08:54 PM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#368    Abramelin

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:57 PM

Mario, the only one who ever had a sane theory about how Atlantis could have existed, how it was formed, and how it was destroyed, was Rod Martin (he started a thread here, years ago):



>> http://www.missionat...idstills-05.php
http://www.missionatlantis.com/

Not that his theory makes Atlantis any more real, just that he used commonly accepted geological processes to support his theory.

Now you try that for your Greenland theory.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 19 November 2012 - 10:04 PM.


#369    DieChecker

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:27 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 19 November 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

I clicked Santori on his poll/map. It is remarkable how many think it was a real island off the shore of spain.

Edited by DieChecker, 19 November 2012 - 10:28 PM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#370    kmt_sesh

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:59 PM

Mario, I understand it must be frustrating to be under assault like this, but try to see this from our perspective.

What is the purpose of a "thought experiment" that flatly ignores so much basic science, as well as history? What do you hope to arrive at with a scenario that cannot be regarded as realistic to begin with? You're asking us to set aside all that is known in the fields of geology, plate tectonics, archaeology, history and the like—but we cannot set them aside because they are what frame any such hypothesis.

This is how it's bound to continue. You're asking too much of everyone.

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#371    DieChecker

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:54 PM

It is like saying to locate Atlantis on the Moon, while ignoring the fact there was no space travel, and that there is not even liquid water on the Moon. Sure, superficial details line up, and it is interesting to discuss, but when the agreement on the few details is done, the reality is that Greenland is NOT Atlantis.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#372    Mario Dantas

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:41 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 19 November 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:


Mario,

You will have to show us proof of some sort of geological process  that explains how a huge island the size of Greenland was able to plow through the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, and then end up near the Arctic without changing shape.

You have never even considered to deal with that little problem, right?

You just post tomes of text and lots of pics, and by that hope all of us will be swamped enough to forget about asking you for details.

Nah, that won't work.

Explain the geological process of how Greenland could end up where it is now.

No asteroid impact could be an explanation.


Abramelin,

My interpretation of the results of the experiment is that, in the eventuality of an ancient impact, there had to have been a crust liquefaction of sorts, which would permit said continental movement.

200km/h is the average speed it would take Greenland to move from Gibraltar to where it is now located in 24h:

"in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea."

Posted Image


I find mid ocean ridges to be a good example as of how the crust could quickly melt and become a buoyant enough medium, to allow the continental "plough" you mentioned.

"Following the discovery of the world-wide extent of the mid-ocean ridge in the 1950s, geologists faced a new task: explaining how such an enormous geological structure could have formed. In the 1960s, geologists discovered and began to propose mechanisms for sea floor spreading. Plate tectonics was a suitable explanation for sea floor spreading, and the acceptance of plate tectonics by the majority of geologists resulted in a major paradigm shift in geological thinking."
http://en.wikipedia....Mid-ocean_ridge


Greenland must have suffered from the move northwards upon molten lava, but nevertheless, somehow, maintained its shape, as happens with the hull of any ship:


Posted Image


Upper mantle material is very fluid, thus continental crust, theoretically, could move upon it, for as long as a force is applied. Are you aware of how thin is our crust, compared to the surface of the planet? In the north Atlantic there are sea floor regions being just 7 km thick. Crustal liquefaction can occur at the time of an impact.

“No asteroid impact could be an explanation.”

Why do you say that an impact cannot be an explanation? Please, can you elaborate?

Regards,
Mario Dantas


Edited by Mario Dantas, 21 November 2012 - 08:56 PM.

1. Catalog of Images
https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com

#373    Mario Dantas

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:44 PM

Cormac,

“Your ignoring the geochronology of the North Atlantic and any relationship to humans is irrelevant to the facts.”


But that can be, nevertheless, very relevant to my experiment.

“You're constrained by the story as it is written, not by what you want it to say.”

I absolutely agree that the story by Plato must be taken “as is” and not be modified to fit everybody’s needs. But you are unjustly accusing me of altering Plato’s story to my necessity, but that cannot be true. One of my main concerns regarding Atlantis is the absolute correspondence (more than in any theory) between Plato’s account and today’s geologic reality.

Regards,
Mario Dantas

Edited by Mario Dantas, 21 November 2012 - 08:54 PM.

1. Catalog of Images
https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com

#374    Mario Dantas

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:46 PM

Quaentum,


“It is not the lack of any evidence to support your hypothesis that is as important as what we do know about the Earth and it's geography, archeology and paleontology that allows us to deny your hypothesis as plausible.”

Yes, but even if none of what i have presented, so far, is of any “plausibility” whatsoever to the argument, i ask whether you aren’t being somewhat prejudice in a way, since i have not showed the remaining information and you speak of lack of any evidence.

I cannot think of a simple way to explain it... but if i am allowed to remain here, will express my views on Plato’s tale, although that can take some time. I am writing you, knowing that important folks here have already spoken negatively about my “experiment”, or how lunatic such idea can be. I really feel like i am being banned or something. Nevertheless, my idea was to promote conversations on what i have been investigating. Yes maybe i am wrong, it has to be always considered...

Regards,
Mario Dantas


Edited by Mario Dantas, 21 November 2012 - 08:53 PM.

1. Catalog of Images
https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com

#375    Mario Dantas

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:50 PM

Die Checker,

You said:

“There is sand in the Sahara due to desertification.”

Correct, but isn’t the Sahara desert’s evolution highly contested among scholars and, therefore, unknown until now? I propose something very close to a “desertification”, a massive spread of benthic sand and dust. Moreover, we know that the Sahara and Arabian peninsula (the whole middle east and even Russia) are very rich in fossil fuel. I ask, is it not strangely coincidental with Plato’s account, that very close Gibraltar there lies an immense region full of fossils, which forcibly had to have been buried suddenly?

“Atlantis, which, as was saying, was an island greater in extent than Libya and Asia, and when afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the ocean.”
http://classics.mit....to/critias.html


You also said:

“You can demonstrate your facts all day long, and I agree with some of your assumptions and conclusions... But only by completely ignoring glaring, totally undenighable facts, such as the timeline of human activitys and the known geology of Greenland.

The Jedi say everything is a matter of perspective... So they can feel better about openly lying to people.”


It is only an experiment and i am not lying about anything!

Regards,
Mario Dantas


Edited by Mario Dantas, 21 November 2012 - 08:51 PM.

1. Catalog of Images
https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com




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