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#946    Mr Walker

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:17 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 09 October 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

See, I would suggest the need to impress a 'beginning' upon time was the psychological demand. That seems apparent when you appeal to your sense of 'self-time' in your argument regarding why there is a "now".

There is no logicality to inventing a 'beginning' to time, unless you are only speaking of time as a local phenomenon. But we are talking in universals here, so locality does not apply.
Scientifically time did not exist  if you go back to a certain point Time BEGAN only when other physical changes happened and when the universe became something, I suppose this is  the sceintific reasoning because basically, time is something which only exists when measurable against external events, Ie the definition of time  existing/passing is connected to change. Where thee is nothing to change and no change happens, then time does not exist. This could be a state of affairs for a short "time" or for  "eternity"

Both would be identical periods of "non time" with no internal or external observers/measurers or  any physical indicators of change to define time.
Let us suppose that your self awareness existed,  alone,  in such a non time period. You ceased to exist at one point and then came back into existence at some other point.

  Because there are no indicators of time  outside your self and you cannot be aware of the time which has /has not passed,  that period could be second or a trilllion years. The two periods are identical for all physical purposes.  Neither you nor your conscioussness nor anything else in the universe has altered in the tiniest measurable degree. Time has stood still, or rather, has ceased to exist

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#947    Ben Masada

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:40 AM

View PostShalom, on 10 August 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

Just about anything can be a god, if you let it.  Money, drugs, women, internet, forums, just about anything.  Many many many god.  Some of them can destroy your life if you let them.

And the BB which no one knows why it happened and what for.


#948    Mr Walker

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:44 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 09 October 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

And the BB which no one knows why it happened and what for.
It had no purpose. Why did it require one? it was not self aware.

****e happens.
Big bangs happen.
Same principle.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#949    Ben Masada

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:52 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 09 October 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

It had no purpose. Why did it require one? it was not self aware.

****e happens.
Big bangs happen.
Same principle.

Well, George Lemaitre said in 1922 that it happened to prove the biblical account that the universe had a beginning. IMHO, it did not have to. Logic had already supplied the proofs by demonstrating that matter could not always have existed without a beginning.

Edited by Ben Masada, 09 October 2013 - 10:53 AM.


#950    Leonardo

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:08 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 09 October 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Scientifically time did not exist...

With all due respect, MW, basing my opinion on previous examples of your scientific knowledge, I do not grant you authority to determine what science has to say regarding time.

Quote

Where thee is nothing to change and no change happens, then time does not exist. This could be a state of affairs for a short "time" or for  "eternity".

Time is the rate of change, which implies time is also the duration between changes. When nothing changes, time is still in existence - this is merely the duration between changes. Time exists even in the duration between changes. Either change happens - whenever that happens - and time exists, or no change ever happens - in which case there is no universe. Simply put, there is no universe (and no "creation of universe") without time, and there is no time without universe. Both time and universe are perspectives of the same, eternal, reality.

Edited by Leonardo, 09 October 2013 - 11:09 AM.

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#951    Mr Walker

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:26 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 09 October 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

With all due respect, MW, basing my opinion on previous examples of your scientific knowledge, I do not grant you authority to determine what science has to say regarding time.



Time is the rate of change, which implies time is also the duration between changes. When nothing changes, time is still in existence - this is merely the duration between changes. Time exists even in the duration between changes. Either change happens - whenever that happens - and time exists, or no change ever happens - in which case there is no universe. Simply put, there is no universe (and no "creation of universe") without time, and there is no time without universe. Both time and universe are perspectives of the same, eternal, reality.
Well that is precisely what i said. There was no universe, and thus  there was no time, because time is a consequence of a universe in which change occurs. It is not me defining this. I am just using material from scientific articles

. When i said no change occured, I meant that no change occured,  at all /ever, for all that non time  (Although ever is also a term loaded with  time) Then energy, matter, space, time, etc all suddenly started up. No universe (no anything) / no time; then universe (everything, or at least some thing)/time. Purely, a natural and spontaneous event, but "driven" by the relative nature of "nothingness" versus "somethingness".

I hate to admit it but I am with hawking on this one. In his own words, prior to the big bang time did not exist.

Edited by Mr Walker, 09 October 2013 - 11:34 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#952    Leonardo

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:32 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 09 October 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

Well that is precisely what i said. There was no universe, and thus  there was no time, because time is a consequence of a universe in which change occurs. It is not me defining this. I am just using material from scientific articles

. When i said no change occured, I meant that no change occured,  at all /ever, for all that non time  (Although ever is also a term loaded with  time) Then energy, matter, space, time, etc all suddenly started up.

You misunderstand the point I made, which contradicted the one you were making. No universe means no time - ever. No universe means the universe cannot just 'begin', it can never exist. That a universe exists means there has never been 'no time'.

The premises that a universe can exist where there previously was not one, and that time can 'start', are both so ridiculously flawed in logic they do not deserve to be called premises.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#953    joc

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:08 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 09 October 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

NAturally humans with evolved self aware sapience construct gods (and many other imaginative constructs)

This skill is not learned but is an inherent and powerful part of every human brain from birth. It is part of how we see our universe and of the thinking and language skills we posses.

BUT that same self aware sapience allows us to recognise, catalogue, and evaluate the wwhole environment around us. It therfore  allows us to recognise and perceive gods, just as it allows us to recognise and perceive cats and dogs. So gods come in a number of forms constructs and real entities. This is true for many things in human nature. We even "construct" cats and dogs using imagination. "Mccavity Mccavity a creature of depravity"

I know from personal experience that there is a real, powerful and physicla alien being, which humans call god But i also know humans make up and construct all sorts of gods.

We all, individually, also perceive real things, including god, through the knowledge and filters available to us as an individual and a member of our society. So the one real god, is not seen perceived or understood by everyone in the same way. This also happens with cats and gods Eg culture and individual perception makes a big difference in how a person sees and interprets/perceives a cat. For some it is a pet, for others lunch, and for some a threat; but given the physical nature of god, it is more exaggerated in "his" case.

Ps. I am not at all sure that energy has always existed. Why should that be the case? Once energy existed, then the universe did, but at one point there was nothing, including energy.
Then, if your Ps is true...there was a time when this powerful alien entity you call God did not exist.

There are a couple of problems in your thesis.  One problem is that you state emphatically that ...

Quote

gods come in a number of forms constructs and real entities.
  and the other is that you state

Quote

NAturally humans with evolved self aware sapience construct gods (and many other imaginative constructs)

This skill is not learned but is an inherent and powerful part of every human brain from birth.
It is indeed learned.  I seriously doubt that...if left to one's own devices...without any outward teaching from anyone about God that one would just naturally come to that conclusion on their own.   We are taught 'faith' in entities from birth.

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#954    Mr Walker

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:47 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 09 October 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

You misunderstand the point I made, which contradicted the one you were making. No universe means no time - ever. No universe means the universe cannot just 'begin', it can never exist. That a universe exists means there has never been 'no time'.

The premises that a universe can exist where there previously was not one, and that time can 'start', are both so ridiculously flawed in logic they do not deserve to be called premises.
And yet that is likely the reality. Why, in logic, is it less likely than the idea/concept that everythng existed forever, with no beginning and no end?  Given many physical indicators, including the nature of entropy, this is unlkely.

Almost certainly, according to Hawking and other scientists, there was a "time" when there was no time. Time only comes into existence when other things come into existence. Many scientists argue that even now there is no real "thing"  called time; (As there are real "things" called space, energy and matter) and that it is only a construct of human observation.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#955    Mr Walker

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:56 AM

View Postjoc, on 09 October 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Then, if your Ps is true...there was a time when this powerful alien entity you call God did not exist.

There are a couple of problems in your thesis.  One problem is that you state emphatically that ...
  and the other is that you state

It is indeed learned.  I seriously doubt that...if left to one's own devices...without any outward teaching from anyone about God that one would just naturally come to that conclusion on their own.   We are taught 'faith' in entities from birth.

Of course There was atime when nothing existed and a time when NO sapient life existed in the universe How then could/did god exist?


But huma history and socal observation demonstratres that indeed


gods come in a number of forms constructs and real entities.
Tha tis one reason why humans have constructed so many intepretaions of gods.

The last piece is my personal knowledge (which is shared by many other humans to day and across the past) that indeed there is/are very real, very poweful, sapient  interventionist entities, which humans call gods, even though that is not really what they are.

And lastly, modern science in many areas has conclusively proven that humans from birth construct god concepts They need no instruction to do so Instructionmay shpe the fom of god invented or recognised but left alone it is a prt of huan cognitive development to construct create and recognise gods. Look up "the construction of human belief" and also "agents and non agents", to gain and understanding of how and why this ocurs in every human,s early months and years. Humans have to be taught to disbelieve and doubt the existence of gods.
The only caveat here is that humans require language and thought to be taught to them As we learn to speak and think in conceptual and symbolic terms, we have the power and ability to recognise and construct gods in our environment.

Edited by Mr Walker, 10 October 2013 - 01:58 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#956    danielost

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:13 AM

If time and space are the samething.(einstein)  then niether can exist without the other.  Thus if there is no space then there ain't no time and the reverse is true.  So if there is no tume and no space there couldn't have been a big bang or an universe.  Thus we are all in a computer sim. Someplace, where time and space have always existed.  Just think, I just made god ten year old snut nosed kid.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#957    Ben Masada

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:20 AM

View Postdanielost, on 10 October 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

If time and space are the samething.(einstein)  then niether can exist without the other.  Thus if there is no space then there ain't no time and the reverse is true.  So if there is no tume and no space there couldn't have been a big bang or an universe.  Thus we are all in a computer sim. Someplace, where time and space have always existed.  Just think, I just made god ten year old snut nosed kid.

It depends. If you are not talking in absolute values, space can exist without time but not time without space. Taking from the definition of both, space is the distance between matter and matter and time is measured by the matter in motion. If matter remains inert there is no time to figure but if matter is in motion, time is present as an accident of motion.


#958    J. K.

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:01 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 10 October 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

It depends. If you are not talking in absolute values, space can exist without time but not time without space. Taking from the definition of both, space is the distance between matter and matter and time is measured by the matter in motion. If matter remains inert there is no time to figure but if matter is in motion, time is present as an accident of motion.

Pardon me if I am wrong, but isn't matter made of atoms?  And atoms are made of protons and electrons which are constantly in motion?  Even if an object is still, its component parts are in motion, and therefore subject to passing of time.

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#959    joc

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:01 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 10 October 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:

Of course There was atime when nothing existed and a time when NO sapient life existed in the universe How then could/did god exist?


But huma history and socal observation demonstratres that indeed


gods come in a number of forms constructs and real entities.
Tha tis one reason why humans have constructed so many intepretaions of gods.

The last piece is my personal knowledge (which is shared by many other humans to day and across the past) that indeed there is/are very real, very poweful, sapient  interventionist entities, which humans call gods, even though that is not really what they are.

And lastly, modern science in many areas has conclusively proven that humans from birth construct god concepts They need no instruction to do so Instructionmay shpe the fom of god invented or recognised but left alone it is a prt of huan cognitive development to construct create and recognise gods. Look up "the construction of human belief" and also "agents and non agents", to gain and understanding of how and why this ocurs in every human,s early months and years. Humans have to be taught to disbelieve and doubt the existence of gods.
The only caveat here is that humans require language and thought to be taught to them As we learn to speak and think in conceptual and symbolic terms, we have the power and ability to recognise and construct gods in our environment.
The concept of God came from Man's early misunderstandings of his environment....plus, the 'coincidences' of life.   For ex: Man hears Thunder and lightening strikes...God.   A volcano erupts....God.   Flood...God.   Tsunami....God.   Plague....God.   Death....God.    Life...God.   Creation...God.

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now i know that light is old and stars are cold

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#960    Leonardo

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:12 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 10 October 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

And yet that is likely the reality. Why, in logic, is it less likely than the idea/concept that everythng existed forever, with no beginning and no end?  Given many physical indicators, including the nature of entropy, this is unlkely.

Entropy is a local phenomenon that applies only to closed systems. Because it is a local phenomenon, and because an infinite duration/size universe cannot be a closed system, it has no bearing on the infinite duration/existence of the universe.

Quote

Almost certainly, according to Hawking and other scientists, there was a "time" when there was no time. Time only comes into existence when other things come into existence. Many scientists argue that even now there is no real "thing"  called time; (As there are real "things" called space, energy and matter) and that it is only a construct of human observation.

Nothing can "come into existence" without time. "Coming into existence" explicitly implies time pre-exists. You have simply misunderstood what some notable scientists have attempted to explain - or perhaps they explained it poorly.

Edited by Leonardo, 10 October 2013 - 02:12 PM.

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"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

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