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The Mysterious Egyptian Tri-Lobed Disc


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#481    MichandMe

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 08:04 PM

It appears to be a vortex concentrator. You could drill with wind using this thing at the end of a jet engine. The article says it's made of stone! Interesting artwork.


#482    cladking

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 04:01 AM

Well.  

A wick works through capillary action.  Essentially it gets "wet"
with the fuel and as it burns  it sucks up more fuel so it stays
wet.  An ink pen works in a similar fashion.  

1659a. Horus has given the gods to thee; he has caused them to ascend to thee, as (reed)-pens,
1659b. that they may illuminate thy face (cheer thee) as temples.

I haven't cited this one before only because it would require some
small translation error in order for it to refer to the action of
the fire-pan but then there is probably no interpretation that would
make this really logical and in line with the rest of the PT.  

I would remove Mercer's explanatory notes and insert some that might
make the intended meaning more clear.  

1659a. Horus has given the gods to thee; he has caused them to ascend to thee (just) as (do) pens,
1659b. that they may illuminate thy face as (well as) temples.

http://www.sacred-te...y/pyt/pyt43.htm

I could really get used to fixing Mercer so it fits a literal under-
standing.  ;)

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#483    Oniomancer

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 05:18 AM

View Postcladking, on 01 July 2010 - 04:01 AM, said:

Well.  

A wick works through capillary action.  Essentially it gets "wet"
with the fuel and as it burns  it sucks up more fuel so it stays
wet.  An ink pen works in a similar fashion.  

1659a. Horus has given the gods to thee; he has caused them to ascend to thee, as (reed)-pens,
1659b. that they may illuminate thy face (cheer thee) as temples.

I haven't cited this one before only because it would require some
small translation error in order for it to refer to the action of
the fire-pan but then there is probably no interpretation that would
make this really logical and in line with the rest of the PT.  

I would remove Mercer's explanatory notes and insert some that might
make the intended meaning more clear.  

1659a. Horus has given the gods to thee; he has caused them to ascend to thee (just) as (do) pens,
1659b. that they may illuminate thy face as (well as) temples.

http://www.sacred-te...y/pyt/pyt43.htm

I could really get used to fixing Mercer so it fits a literal under-
standing.  ;)
Illuminate has more than one meaning Clad.

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#484    kmt_sesh

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 02:37 PM

View PostOniomancer, on 01 July 2010 - 05:18 AM, said:

Illuminate has more than one meaning Clad.

Indeed, cladking's "revisions" are artificial and do not correspond to what the glyphs themselves say.

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#485    cladking

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 08:16 PM

View PostOniomancer, on 01 July 2010 - 05:18 AM, said:

Illuminate has more than one meaning Clad.


Yes it does.  

...nd no doubt, so too, did the word that they used for
"illuminate". Mercer thought the best translation was this
word and it meant "cheer thee". But whatever the word was
it obviously had some meaning similar to "illuminate" or it
was exactly "illuminate" and he believed it was a euphimism
meaning "cheer thee".  

My point isn't and never has been that there are a few iso-
lated phrases in the Pyramid Texts that can be taken literal-
ly.  My point is that the entire work is amenable to a liter-
al understanding.  

I doubt the ancients were able to harness the power of capil-
lary action for practicl purposes such as building pyramids
but it was the foundational principle of their writing instru-
ments, candles, and oil lamps.  It was probably used limitedly
for other purposes.  It would have been a source of fascination.  

These lines have no real sense in English so I felt free to re-
write them  little. There must be a translation error since
they make no sense. It's possible that it was written nonsens-
ically but this is the exception in this work so error is the
best guess.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#486    cladking

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 08:19 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 01 July 2010 - 02:37 PM, said:

Indeed, cladking's "revisions" are artificial and do not correspond to what the glyphs themselves say.

Since the translation is apparently in error I would
be extremely interested in hearing more about the mean-
ing of the glyphs.  

One way or the other everything always seems to come back
to support water pressure to build and a literal meaning
of the PT.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#487    cladking

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 09:19 PM

1807b. Osiris N., thy face is opened by the light.
1807c. Osiris N., thy [face is illuminated] as the earth is illuminated.
1808a. Osiris N., I have given the eye of Horus to thee, as Rē gives it (the light).

You can see how it's used here.

I believe if the PT were translated with a view toward a literal
meaning the entire thing would make a lot more sense.  A literal
meaning was never considered before so it's been translated to be
consistent with the same metaphoric meaning as the book of the dead.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#488    kmt_sesh

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 09:36 PM

View Postcladking, on 01 July 2010 - 09:19 PM, said:

1807b. Osiris N., thy face is opened by the light.
1807c. Osiris N., thy [face is illuminated] as the earth is illuminated.
1808a. Osiris N., I have given the eye of Horus to thee, as Rē gives it (the light).

You can see how it's used here.

I believe if the PT were translated with a view toward a literal
meaning the entire thing would make a lot more sense.  A literal
meaning was never considered before so it's been translated to be
consistent with the same metaphoric meaning as the book of the dead.

Translators draw from what the original vocabulary meant. Some examples:

face = Hr
opened = wpt
illuminated = wbn
earth = tA
thy face is illuminated as the earth is illuminated = wbn Hr.k m wbn tA


It's not always this simple to be sure but the passage you posted is straight forward. The translation is basic (errors in the above would be mine because I'm at work and don't have access to my library to fact-check myself). It merely requires some polishing in rendering so it makes sense to a reader of English (e.g., a straight translation of wbn Hr.k m wbn tA would be "illuminated your face as illuminated the earth"). The translations are literal in the first step, then tweaked to make sense according to English syntax. The overall meanings behind religious phraseology were certainly often metaphorical, but none of them support your contentions. You're making statements about the processes of translation when you don't even know what those processes are, or the methodologies involved.

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#489    cladking

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 10:18 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 01 July 2010 - 09:36 PM, said:

You're making statements about the processes of translation when you don't even know what those processes are, or the methodologies involved.

Of course I do.  Really everyone does in some way shape or
form but I've translated from Spanish to English and vice
versa and have translated from English to computer languages
and from technical speak to English.  

Everytime you talk you have to talk to your audience.  I don't
use a lot of six and seven syllable words when I speak to 2nd
graders.  

When you translate something you put what you think the meaning
is in a different language.

The simple fact is that communication is never perfect because
word meanings are always dependent on individuals.  In all cases
word meanings and meanings of phrases can be entirely lost where
referents aren't shared.  If they were referring to the fire-pan
that burned when the water flowed then just what possible chance
did any translator have of arriving at a good translation? None
whatsoever.  The same thing applies to the entire PT.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#490    cladking

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 11:01 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 01 July 2010 - 09:36 PM, said:

Translators draw from what the original vocabulary meant. Some examples:

face = Hr
opened = wpt
illuminated = wbn
earth = tA
thy face is illuminated as the earth is illuminated = wbn Hr.k m wbn tA


It's not always this simple to be sure but the passage you posted is straight forward. The translation is basic (errors in the above would be mine because I'm at work and don't have access to my library to fact-check myself). It merely requires some polishing in rendering so it makes sense to a reader of English (e.g., a straight translation of wbn Hr.k m wbn tA would be "illuminated your face as illuminated the earth"). The translations are literal in the first step, then tweaked to make sense according to English syntax. The overall meanings behind religious phraseology were certainly often metaphorical, but none of them support your contentions.


I'm not disregarding your translation here and I have no reason to
doubt it.  This goes double since you say this one is quite straight
forward.  It's simply a matter that it is still consistent with my
literal understanding.  Granted, it is not so close a fit as those
lines quoted earlier in this thread and the intent might have been
something else.  But it should be put in context to really try to see
the intent.

Utterance 638.

1805a. To say: Osiris N., the gods have bound thy face to thee;
1805b. Horus has given his eye to thee, that thou mayest see [with it].
1806a. Osiris N., Horus has opened thine eye for thee, that thou mayest see with it,
1806b. in its name of "She who opens the ways of god."

Utterance 639.

1807a. To say [Osiris N.], take the eye of Horus, being alive, that thou mayest see with it.
1807b. Osiris N., thy face is opened by the light.
1807c. Osiris N., thy [face is illuminated] as the earth is illuminated.
1808a. Osiris N., I have given the eye of Horus to thee, as Rē gives it (the light).
1808b. Osiris N., [put the eye] of Horus to thyself, that thou mayest see with it.
1809a. Osiris N., I have opened thine eye that thou mayest see with it.
1809b. Osiris N. [I have given to thee] the ointment.

Horus has given "she who opens the ways of God" to Osiris/ the
dead king. He has opened this eye given to the dead king that he
can see with it apparently.  The eye is alive when it is being used.

Then comes 1807b which is a little stickier. Without ever speaking
of any light it suddenly says that a face is opened by the light. We
need to come bacjk to what light and hold the concept of "opening a face"
at arms lenght.  

One thing about this light is that both the face and the earth is il-
luminated by it.  1808a introduces another person (the writer) who claims
to have given the eye as well as did Re (though Mercer believes Re gave
the light).  The last three lines are easier and suggest that the eye
mustr be opened and accepted by Osiris N that Osiris N can see.  It also
has ointment.  

I don't think any interpretation is going to make this smooth.  

But seeing this in a literal way makes it smooth enough.  Any roughness
might be attributable to translation error.  The very next line;

1810a. To say: O Geb, thy son is Osiris N.;

Shows the relationship of Geb to the dead king.  The dead king is the pyra-
mid and is a part of the earth (Geb).  The earth as the pyramid is illuminated
by something.  Re may be mentioned only through his association with the eye
rather than the source of the illumination.  

The "ointment" by the way appears from context to be a mixture of grease, mus-
ilaganeos myrhh, and natron which was applied at the eye to degas it and make
it safe to work.  This puts these utterances in the light of moving water.  

In other words it's night time the water is flowing and the fire-pan burns.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#491    Oniomancer

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 04:42 AM

View Postcladking, on 01 July 2010 - 11:01 PM, said:

1807a. To say [Osiris N.], take the eye of Horus, being alive, that thou mayest see with it.
1807b. Osiris N., thy face is opened by the light.
1807c. Osiris N., thy [face is illuminated] as the earth is illuminated.
1808a. Osiris N., I have given the eye of Horus to thee, as Rē gives it (the light).
1808b. Osiris N., [put the eye] of Horus to thyself, that thou mayest see with it.
1809a. Osiris N., I have opened thine eye that thou mayest see with it.
1809b. Osiris N. [I have given to thee] the ointment.

Shows the relationship of Geb to the dead king.  The dead king is the pyra-
mid and is a part of the earth (Geb).  The earth as the pyramid is illuminated
by something.  Re may be mentioned only through his association with the eye
rather than the source of the illumination.  

The "ointment" by the way appears from context to be a mixture of grease, mus-
ilaganeos myrhh, and natron which was applied at the eye to degas it and make
it safe to work.  This puts these utterances in the light of moving water.  

In other words it's night time the water is flowing and the fire-pan burns.
Sounds more like a description of laser eye surgery.

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#492    cladking

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 04:54 AM

Here's another version of the Emerald Tablets.  This work is
believed to have its roots much further back than has been pre-
viously considered according to this new site.  

"'After my entrance into the chamber, where the talisman was set up, I came up to an old man sitting on a golden throne, who was holding an emerald table in one hand. And behold the following -in Syriac, the primordial language- was written thereon :

Here (is) a true explanation, concerning which there can be no doubt. It attests : the above from the below, and the below from the above - the work of the miracle of the One. And things have been from this primal substance through a single act. How wonderful is this work ! It is the main (principle) of the world and is its maintainer. Its father is the sun and its mother the moon. The wind has borne it in its body, and the earth has nourished it. The father of talismen and the protector of miracles whose powers are perfect, and whose lights are confirmed (?). A fire that becomes earth. Separate the earth from the fire, so you will attain the subtle as more inherent than the gross, with care and sagacity. It rises from earth to heaven, so as to draw the lights of the heights to itself, and descends to the earth ; thus within it are the forces of the above and the below ; because the light of lights within it, thus does the darkness flee before it. The force of forces, which overcomes every subtle thing and penetrates into everything gross. The structure of the microcosm is in accordance with the structure of the macrocosm. And accordingly proceed the knowledgeable.

And to this aspired Hermes, who was threefold graced with wisdom. And this is his last book, which he concealed in the chamber.'"

It says that Hermes built the pyramids according to Arab legend
and here it says that "because the light of lights within it, thus
does the darkness flee before it.".  This I suspect is a reference
to the fire-pan.  The other references to light are to the rainbows
seen duruing the day.  Hermes is Greek for Osiris (not Thot) and he
built the pyramids.  

Some of this got garbled in the legends a little such as Osiris was
the great grandson of Atum who was the God of the ben ben rather than
the grandson of Arab legend.  Mostly it seems quite clear.  

http://www.sofiatopi...eon/emerald.htm

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#493    tri-lobe

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 09:30 AM

[quote name='path_finder' date='18 April 2010 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1271583853' post='3380945']
If you take in account the virtual axle (explained above in another post), you can see in the drawing herafter how the geometrical shape of the trilobed bowl can be use as a part of the whole design. As you can see, everything is related to the outer rim of the wheel, wich is another basic principle of the gravitic engines.
Some other important properties cannot be represented in this 2D drawing, but I hope this first level of information can help you to believe I'm not fully fool.
This object is really a marvel of optimization for the paths of the moving parts.[quote]

Hello Pathfinder,
I went to the effort of making a firberglass model of the trilobe bowl(the first in 5000yrs,no egyptoligist or expert could be bothered) I can show to all interested that this item is capable of pushing water, you can replicate this fore yourself, if your interested, I could, therefore you can.

I have posted photo's in this thread how I went about this.In my opinion form follows function(the opposite to some on this site).
Some folk on this site feel that items dug up by egyptoloist's are only ritural or ornimental therefore not part of a functional  group.

Why have a raised cental hub? Why have a circumferential band? Why does it create a vortex when spinning?

There'r are double standards on this site by the control freaks that the herd follows.........

If i use Emery or Alderd, there're to old for references... but it's ok for Wilkinson(1999)and Wendrow(2006)....but not for me to use.

I feel that i'm dealing with low brow interlectural snobbery...but then I'm not dealing with people with techincal qualifications.

I have been told that history and archeaology are soft sciences as apposed to the hard sciences of eningeering,phyics,chemistry and geology.

Path finder, best of luck with your time on this subject,

                        With  regards trilobe.....


#494    tri-lobe

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 12:29 PM

View Postpath_finder, on 18 April 2010 - 09:44 AM, said:

If you take in account the virtual axle (explained above in another post), you can see in the drawing herafter how the geometrical shape of the trilobed bowl can be use as a part of the whole design. As you can see, everything is related to the outer rim of the wheel, wich is another basic principle of the gravitic engines.
Some other important properties cannot be represented in this 2D drawing, but I hope this first level of information can help you to believe I'm not fully fool.
This object is really a marvel of optimization for the paths of the moving parts.
Hello Pathfinder
               Please have a look at several photos on this thread that some individuals claim are the same as the trilobe bowl,
               NO raised central hub, No circumferencial band,no full tri- lobe folds.
               I state once again that the TRI-LOBE BOWL ....is unique,a one off....show me a photo of exactly the same shape to the tee.
               If there'r was a exact similar item , the smart a..es on this site would have shown it to prove their point.....
               All that they can do is distract you with ther're personal opinons...oftern dragged from wikkicrap.
               remember the experts said that heavier than air machines would NEVER FLY,
               From Australia I've flown to egypt,jordan,lebenon,syria,iran....experts run the economy....and thats working...
               IF you wont to solve a technical problem you don't asked a historian or an art expert , they'll only have a opinion based upon what they're read in someone eles's book.....too lazy to write and publish their own....to scared to voice an opinion out side the box.......

               with regards...trilobe.


#495    kmt_sesh

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 10:44 PM

View Posttri-lobe, on 04 July 2010 - 09:30 AM, said:

...

There'r are double standards on this site by the control freaks that the herd follows.........

If i use Emery or Alderd, there're to old for references... but it's ok for Wilkinson(1999)and Wendrow(2006)....but not for me to use.

I feel that i'm dealing with low brow interlectural snobbery...but then I'm not dealing with people with techincal qualifications.

I have been told that history and archeaology are soft sciences as apposed to the hard sciences of eningeering,phyics,chemistry and geology.

...

Technical qualifications are not necessarily relevant to proper inquiry. Look at Chris Dunn. He seems to have ample technical qualifications but it's painfully clear the man has no understanding of the culture itself or of its technology. This is why he is not taken seriously. The man's theories are just silly. If you don't begin with a solid understanding of the ancient Egyptian people and the capabilities, advantages, and disadvantages of their Bronze Age engineering, then everything that follows in your theory is not really tenable for the purpose of legitimate scientific inquiry.

You can pick and choose your sources all you want. The simple truth is, in almost all cases, the more modern research is simply the more grounded and reliable to follow. I have since gone on to purchase Emery's book for my own library and have noted that he says almost nothing of substance about this object. You might not want to toot his horn too much. It clearly wasn't key to any of his research.

There are no double standards at UM. There is simply the people who favor the fringe and its representatives, and the people who favor hard science and history and its representatives. The analogy of the herd is apt, but not for proper inquiry. The herd follows the fringe, as is painfully obvious in discussion after discussion. Like cattle, they follow whatever the fringe writers say without question and without performing their own fact checking. Moo.

I'm not quite sure why this particular discussion keeps coming back. All that seems to be added to it is baseless speculation and tiresome redundancy. Everything meaningful to say in this thread was said long ago. I myself really ought to stop responding, but your outburst required a response.

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