Bling, on 27 September 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:
Because believers believe that anyone who speaks bad of jesus is evil....let alone those who betray him in a more practical sense.
right back at ya!
Greetings Bling,
There is an issue with this "betrayal."
Mark the first of the Synoptics makes no mention of intention as to why Judas "hands over Jesus." In
Mark at elast IMO there is no inclination of "betrayal" at all. I've read in studies that Judas may have intended to introduce Jesus to the local priests and something may have went drastically wrong. Although speculation there is not much to go on other than Judas "handing over" Jesus. Again a difference then the later gospels implying betrayal.
As far as my
, no disrespect is intended, consider it my warmest wishes only to a sinfully delightul degree.
libstaK, on 27 September 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:
Pontius Pilate and Judas, after Jesus can be seen to have made the greatest sacrifice for mankind - making of themselves the villians, you make a good point it has been discussed in my circles before and agreed that should not be villified.
Greetings libstaK,
It's something that has long been puzzling. If Jesus is set free and as many believe his death fulfills the tole or pays for all sinners...then how can either Pilate or Judas not be seen in at least a more sympathetic light by many? If indeed everything is part of God's divine plan that is. Of course each gospel has their own intentions for the time period of the writings to consider and that may certainly be why alterations or additions were made in regards to the temperaments or personalities of Pilate and Judas. But it's long baffled me particularly those quick to embrace the Gospel of
Luke where the "devil" works through Judas and in
John where by this time Judas is in league with the devil himself.
Bling, on 27 September 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:
So...Judas and Pilate were innocent victims in god's plan or did they believe jesus really was what he claimed to be, so helped him along to do his job? The bible says they were used by satan to betray jesus, so who orchestrated it, god or satan? Who's the hero? although I don't believe the bible to be true <- this bit's small because I've said it so many times but didn't not want to say it....if you know what I mean?!
Depends on which particular gospel one embraces I suppose.
The earliest
Mark, doesn't give us too much to work with and perhaps for the better IMO. In
John it appears very clear that Jesus is in control of everything. That he knows when he's going to die, that he knows each and everyone he appointed around him even though one is a devil. That's why I anticipate differing degrees of answers pending on which gospels one accept or favor more.
John for some reason seems to be the most appealing.
Luke written much after
Mark and
Matthew give the implication that the devil is working through Judas.
Wearer of Hats, on 27 September 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:
Pilate actually wanted to free Jesus, but was following the pressure from the locals.
Judas I actually do feel sorry for, as he was doing exactly what God needed of him.
Greetings Wearer of Hats,
That's pending on which gospel. Some portray Pilate as sympathetic to Jesus, others, as somewhat an imbecile and aloof, others indifferent to Jews and so forth. But you are certainly correct even turning his offer to the audience as to who he should set free "Jesus or Barrabus?" and by doing so putting the blame back on the Jews and as a gospel portrays out of symbolism Pilate washes his hands to free himself of guilt.
Judas and Pilate have long been some of my favorite figures of the Bible. And thus by the same token an amount of sympathy to go with them.
Dr. D, on 27 September 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:
The Gospel of Judas makes that exact claim.
Greetings Dr. D,
Well the Gospel of Judas makes a lot of claims that just being one of em to a degree. The
Gospel According to Judas was attempting to answer many things. One was the question of Christians sacrificing themselves willingly. The Gospel of Judas questions fellow Christians that participate in such an act and does nothing short of condemn the act of "self sacrifice" for God. Or giving themselves up to the Lord.
But even in the Gospel According to Judas, even here Judas isn'texactly portrayed in the greatest of lights. If you've read it bear in mind Judas would exceed em all and go to a different realm than the others and what appears to be of a material realm IMO. When I get the chance to find the passages later I'll provide just to help convey what I mean.
All that said...interestingly enough after reading Judas and working backwards did things start to make more sense to me then reading by the earliest accounts and going up to Judas
Quite odd.
SINcerely,
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