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Japan will never stop whaling, minister says


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#61    Frank Merton

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 06:03 AM

I have serious moral qualms about the killing of any sensate animal.  However, provided the animal has a life that is better than it would in the wild (as can be although of course not always is the case with domesticated animals), an offsetting good can be shown.  (An offsetting good can also be shown when it is seen that culling of wild animals that no longer have natural predators controlling population reduces suffering).

Another complicating factor is the level of intelligence.  Just that the animal is sensate is one thing, but animals are also at varying levels of intelligence.  The rule of thumb here is not hard to see -- the more intelligent the animal the greater the moral offense involved in killing it.


#62    FLOMBIE

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 06:19 AM

What is a sensate animal? All animals have feelings. and all animals have a certain level of intelligence.

Edited by FLOMBIE, 28 February 2013 - 06:21 AM.


#63    Frank Merton

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 06:31 AM

View PostFLOMBIE, on 28 February 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

What is a sensate animal? All animals have feelings. and all animals have a certain level of intelligence.
Yes, of course.  The point can even be made that there is evidence of such in plants.

Being sensate has to do with the issue of "qualia," the fact that we experience the world rather than just respond do stimuli.  If a bright light suddenly strikes our retina, it automatically responds, without any conscious thought and well before the report of the event gets to our brain.  This is reflex and is seen in all living things.

But over the course of evolution a different, more subtle phenomenon has also developed -- that of experience, of sensation.  We "see" a bright light in two ways -- the physical phenomenon and the experiential phenomenon.  The second may be accompanied by some emotion or other experience (pain, fear, anger, etc.).

It's related to the hoary old question, is my "blue" the same as your "blue."  The thing is, experiences can be assigned words, but unless you actually have had the experience, the word will mean nothing.

Enter the concept of suffering.  I would think natural selection played an important role here, as some experiences cause suffering -- pain being the most obvious -- and this has negative moral consequences.  Sensate beings can suffer.  From a biological viewpoint this doesn't matter -- suffering is only another experience -- but from a moral standpoint we have an entirely different issue.

Edited by Frank Merton, 28 February 2013 - 06:33 AM.


#64    FLOMBIE

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 06:42 AM

Sorry, I just got up and I am a bit in a hurry right now. I will get to your post in a few hours. :tu:


#65    Moon Gazer

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 08:38 AM

I think one of the reasons I hate to whales hurt is I once watched a documentary about grey whales.  And it showed a mother whale trying to protect her calf from Orka's.  Oh my gosh it was heartbreaking!  I understand that is nature (and different to humans hunting) and the Orka's would probably die without the food too, but that didn't stop me crying about it!  I know, I am just a big softy but it was so sad seeing that mum whale trying to fight off 3 or 4 Orka's and save her baby (she lost by the way :( ).  But I think just seeing that somehow related to me as a mum and made them seem more "human" to me (if that makes sense?)


#66    Frank Merton

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 08:52 AM

Yea -- a bear doing that to a human child would be hunted down.  Orcas are problematic in the scheme of things, and just goes to show us that evolution is no respecter of our feelings.


#67    CrimsonKing

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 09:15 AM

View PostFLOMBIE, on 27 February 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Denmark - 197 whales
St. Vincent and The Grenadines - 1 whale
Korea - 2 whales
Russian Federation - 137 whales
USA - 39 whales

Link

I guess this post about answers the reason why most are always going on about the japanese whaling.All of these countries listed above kill almost as many whales combined a year as japan does by themselves.For one country that is a lot of whales just for research.Wouldnt you agree?

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu

#68    FLOMBIE

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:17 AM

View PostMoon Gazer, on 28 February 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

I think one of the reasons I hate to whales hurt is I once watched a documentary about grey whales.  And it showed a mother whale trying to protect her calf from Orka's.  Oh my gosh it was heartbreaking!  I understand that is nature (and different to humans hunting) and the Orka's would probably die without the food too, but that didn't stop me crying about it!  I know, I am just a big softy but it was so sad seeing that mum whale trying to fight off 3 or 4 Orka's and save her baby (she lost by the way :( ).  But I think just seeing that somehow related to me as a mum and made them seem more "human" to me (if that makes sense?)
But most animals are defending their offspring - even the "less intelligent". Altruism is a very common animal behaviour. I just try not to humanize all of them. Whales are not special in this regard.


#69    FLOMBIE

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:24 AM

View PostCrimsonKing, on 28 February 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

I guess this post about answers the reason why most are always going on about the japanese whaling.All of these countries listed above kill almost as many whales combined a year as japan does by themselves.For one country that is a lot of whales just for research.Wouldnt you agree?
I don't know. Norway is catching just as many. I can't make any statement about the research and how many are needed for that. I just fail to see why catching whales is especially bad - if the kind of whale is not endangered.


#70    Moon Gazer

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:13 PM

View PostFLOMBIE, on 28 February 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

But most animals are defending their offspring - even the "less intelligent". Altruism is a very common animal behaviour. I just try not to humanize all of them. Whales are not special in this regard.

Yeah I know.  That is why I try not to watch too many wildlife programs on TV, I am just too soft and end up traumatised by what is just part of nature!


#71    Yamato

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:37 PM

Mankind ran species after species into the ground and despite a cease on whaling of certain species for many decades, we see their numbers only very slowly recover.   Whales can't withstand this slaughter.   Neither can sharks or bluefin tuna, btw.   Hell, ALL large animals are going extinct if trends predict the future.

Create whale farms and raise them like you do cows and pigs, and if some Japanese people putting whale meat into their mouths is so bloody important to you, then you'll get that benefit for the expense of raising those whales. Good luck.  That's never going to happen because the economics simply don't work.   So zip it and eat your beef.

This farm animal bit doesn't even apply to Sea Shepherd which is a vegan organization, so if that's the best you folks can do, direct your criticism elsewhere.

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"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#72    FLOMBIE

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:18 PM

Is it so much better to 'farm' animals for food? Lots of animal eaten are not being farmed. You are sitting on a very high horse here, Yamato.

I don't see whaling being very harmful to the populations of the hunted whales. They are pretty high! If they maintain their limits, I really do not see the problem.

The Sea Shephard, a vegan organization, choosing a name that makes them sound like they are herding sea animals. :clap:


#73    Frank Merton

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:34 PM

The problem is not danger of extinction, at least in most cases, but that these animals are probably the closest to us in intellect you are going to find.  At least that is my problem with it.

We all have to draw a line somewhere as to what it is ethical to kill for food and what isn't, and I include cetaceans on the human side of the line.  Besides, have you ever seen how they kill a whale?  It isn't quite the same as a sudden stun knocking the animal out.


#74    CrimsonKing

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:37 PM

View PostFLOMBIE, on 01 March 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

Is it so much better to 'farm' animals for food? Lots of animal eaten are not being farmed. You are sitting on a very high horse here, Yamato.

I don't see whaling being very harmful to the populations of the hunted whales. They are pretty high! If they maintain their limits, I really do not see the problem.

The Sea Shephard, a vegan organization, choosing a name that makes them sound like they are herding sea animals. :clap:

As i said can you yourself give me a given number of each one of these species left?As has already been posted in this topic some of these whales being hunted are endangered.Just because something is legal does not make it right!You seem to be of the mind i have noticed from some of the topics we have crossed ways on that having the last word makes you 100% correct.Well this is my last post on topic so consider yourself correct i guess.

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu

#75    Yamato

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:09 PM

View PostFLOMBIE, on 01 March 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

Is it so much better to 'farm' animals for food? Lots of animal eaten are not being farmed. You are sitting on a very high horse here, Yamato.

I don't see whaling being very harmful to the populations of the hunted whales. They are pretty high! If they maintain their limits, I really do not see the problem.

The Sea Shephard, a vegan organization, choosing a name that makes them sound like they are herding sea animals. :clap:

View PostFLOMBIE, on 01 March 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

Is it so much better to 'farm' animals for food? Lots of animal eaten are not being farmed. You are sitting on a very high horse here, Yamato.

I don't see whaling being very harmful to the populations of the hunted whales. They are pretty high! If they maintain their limits, I really do not see the problem.

The Sea Shephard, a vegan organization, choosing a name that makes them sound like they are herding sea animals. :clap:
Shepherd:  A person who protects, guides, or watches over.

Your faith in Japan's limits is touching but unfortunately the history of whaling and the depletion of one species' numbers after another countermands those naive hopes.

I don't see the problem if human populations are reduced to less than a billion worldwide.   That way we can preserve our biodiversity and not have to sit idly by snipping at people like me just for caring.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela




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