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Loch Ness monster cited by US schools as

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#46    thewatchman7

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 11:20 AM

this is EVERYTHING wrong with a "free society".

some people are too stupid to have a vote, or in this case, a say in what children are educated with.


#47    Mr Walker

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 01:38 PM

View Postkarmakazi, on 02 July 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Frankly, what makes us appear unique amongst all the creatures of this planet is our inability to communicate with them and their apparent lack of intelligence.  We don't know if they have beliefs or knowledge bases beyond what they outwardly exhibit.




Children who are not taught beliefs by *anyone* will not come up with what religion or creationism says on their own.  The fact is kids are exposed to all kinds of things their parents may not know about or be able to control.  That's why we've had people fight to get prayer out of schools in the US;  people who didn't follow a religion did not want their children exposed to it.




Holding a belief is like holding on to the nicest watermelon in the patch.  As long as you hold that watermelon, generations of watermelons can come and go, but you'll never know if there was a better one because you wouldn't let go of the one you're holding.   In terms of beliefs, as long as you're holding onto an idea and believing in it, you won't be able to see the truth.  For that, you have to let go of everything you think you know.




Where you see a person having a happier and improved quality of life, I see a person who is deluding themselves and incapable of truly coping with their grief.  Not coping with grief will ultimately cause unhappiness and may even cause a person to become completely absorbed in a fantasy world in their head, where they don't truly suffer any grief or guilt.

I have a problem with the idea that people shouldn't experience their grief, that they shouldn't work through it and find inner strength despite the adversity they've faced.  I've seen many turn to religion or belief in order to escape their grief, and over time they become shells.  I'm not saying this applies to everyone with belief, but I know it applies to some.  That is why I cannot agree that belief is a good thing across the board, there are many examples where it does great harm.





Sometimes that may be the case, but much of the time it is not.  Sometimes humans form beliefs as a coping mechanism - in order to avoid or escape pain.  A person who has caused another harm can believe that they had no other choice, or any number of things to aleviate their guilt - but that belief would still be false and unhealthy.  Some people gravitate to religion because they want answers, forgiveness, or a feeling of belonging.

We are not unique in being unable to communicate cross species. It is a universal trait. Actually we do know they do not have those things because we know now that they are a product of thought processes  which are inextricably  connected to language. Without human level linguistic abilities it is physically ipossible to achieve human level beliefs or knowledge bases. Only evolved abilities are available to them.

Actually it has been proven scientifically that all human children who are taught to speak, and thus to think, construct their own belief systems; and while they may adopt their parents or other taught models, if those are not provided they create their own as part of their evolving sapience and language skills. Its a natural consequence of our capabilities in thought/language.

Belief has nothing to do with truths.  Neither does disbelief. Do you KNOW there is/are no god(s)?  Belief exists outside or beyond evidential proofs. That is the only place it can exist.

And your belief about coping is delusional. Let us suppose there is a pill which alleviates all pain. No one can prove HOW it works  but demonstrably it works. You are suggesting people should not take that pill but "tough it out", as if that somehow is a superior  reaction. If you broke your leg would you take a pain killer? If you were  clinically depressed and or grieving, would you take medicine to help you?

Many people have a more sophisticated understanding of the power and benefits of belief These have been medically and psychologically proven and demonstrated. But let us suppose it was purely a placebo  effect You are arrogant enoguh to suggest that on the basis of your disbelief people are better off "suffering honestly".

First how do you KNOW their faith is delusional and second, what right do you have to deny them even a placebo effect.  I think this attitude reflects your own fears and prejudices more than reality.The rest of your argument might have very minor merit but i have never observed the effects you relate  I doiHAVE a personal and historical understanding of how billions of humans benefit from beliefs  and why this works. It is true that grief can, and does, make shells of people and even drives them to suicide, but i have seen more non spiritual people destroyed by grief than spiritual ones. People with a belief COPE, in large part, because of that belief.
I will give you that people turn to beliefs and religions for many reasons. They stick with those beliefs because they are effective. People aren't stupid. They go with that which works for them.There is absolutely nothing wrong with people wanting answers forgiveness or belonging. All three are very high on the hierachy of human needs. Are you suggesting they cannot have these things, or should manage without them? In practice that causes greater pain and psychological harm, again leading to physical illnesses, harm and ultimately, in many cases, suicide.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#48    Beany

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 01:59 PM

To hold a belief that flies in the face of science & established facts seems counterproductive. And there seems to me to be something inherently flawed in a determination to hold onto such a belief that requires denial of the realities of science. Belief without thought and introspection, any belief religious or otherwise, that requires one to give up common sense, seems, IMHO, obstructive to further growth & development & maturation.


#49    karmakazi

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 03:46 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 02 July 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

We are not unique in being unable to communicate cross species. It is a universal trait. Actually we do know they do not have those things because we know now that they are a product of thought processes  which are inextricably  connected to language. Without human level linguistic abilities it is physically ipossible to achieve human level beliefs or knowledge bases. Only evolved abilities are available to them.


I did not mean that our incapability to communicate made us different from other species, as far as we know, there is no species that can effectively communicate with a different species.

What I meant was, because we cannot communicate with other species, we assume ourselves to be unique.  They cannot tell us otherwise.


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Actually it has been proven scientifically that all human children who are taught to speak, and thus to think, construct their own belief systems;

Yes.  Their OWN belief systems.  That was my point.


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Belief has nothing to do with truths.  Neither does disbelief. Belief exists outside or beyond evidential proofs. That is the only place it can exist.

I said truth, not proof.  There's a difference, especially in spiritual matters.  Truth is something that is ultimately elusive because of the human condition, which is why anyone who believes they know truth is harmed by that belief - it is a falsehood.



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Do you KNOW there is/are no god(s)?  

Jumping to conclusions?  Just because I don't have a specific belief in who or what god is does not mean I'm an atheist.  I prefer to allow whatever is out there to reveal itself to me as it deems fit, not chase after a story written by someone else about their own personal experience.

Therein lies one of my biggest problems with belief.  Just because you have spiritual experiences does not mean the source of those experiences fits in the nice neat little package of a belief system.  Hence the reason I said belief closes people off from the truth.

None of us knows what is out there.  A belief is the assertion that you do know what is out there.  That is a delusion whether you like it, or not.


Quote

And your belief about coping is delusional. Let us suppose there is a pill which alleviates all pain. No one can prove HOW it works  but demonstrably it works. You are suggesting people should not take that pill but "tough it out", as if that somehow is a superior  reaction. If you broke your leg would you take a pain killer? If you were  clinically depressed and or grieving, would you take medicine to help you?

Incidentally, I have been clinically depressed off and on throughout my life.  A pill isn't a magic fix and I've never taken depression medication.  Instead, I've worked through my feelings by writing about them until I work through them.  It's very effective and it has really improved my ability to cope and interact with other people.  There are studies that show that exercising regularly may be as effective as anti-depressants.  Between journalling and exercise, there are two ways a person can help themselves rather than relying on magic pills.

That's what I'm talking about... doing the work to aleviate one's own suffering rather than taking a dodge.


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Many people have a more sophisticated understanding of the power and benefits of belief These have been medically and psychologically proven and demonstrated. But let us suppose it was purely a placebo  effect You are arrogant enoguh to suggest that on the basis of your disbelief people are better off "suffering honestly".

Coping is simply a method of aleviating suffering.  Instead of avoiding it, you push through it to the other side and that is the only way to genuinely put the suffering behind you.



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First how do you KNOW their faith is delusional

I am talking about people I have known all of my life, inside and out, and the other people I've met who have very, very similar personalities and beliefs.

Here's an example.  If you walked into a home where the person had boxes and garbage piled floor to ceiling with barely any room to walk, or a middle aged woman's house that was chock full of dolls or stuffed animals, would that seem healthy to you?  Would you look at it and think "Nope, this person is not suffering."  ?

There is something that happens in the mind that causes a person to do those things, something that most people agree isn't natural or healthy, and usually happens after tragedy that the person never fully copes with.  I'm talking about that exact same personality type, which instead of (or in addition to) hoarding turns to religion.



Quote

and second, what right do you have to deny them even a placebo effect.

What makes you think I want to deny them?  I was merely pointing out something that I have observed.  Everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe.  This isn't me laying down laws of how to live, I am discussing observations I've made that relate to the overal context of the thread.  A discussion doesn't force or deny anyone the right to anything.

Furthermore, in reference to my example above, if someone is living in a hoarded house, the people who care about them recognize that it is not safe for them or healthy for them to avoid coping.  The same is true of anyone who avoids coping.  It degrades a person's ability to interact with others, to really live their lives, to even experience spiritual joy.

Not coping with something prolongs the pain... a placebo only masks the pain.


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I think this attitude reflects your own fears and prejudices more than reality.

Think whatever you like, but understand that this has nothing to do with my own fears and prejudices.



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I will give you that people turn to beliefs and religions for many reasons. They stick with those beliefs because they are effective.

Or because they are afraid not to... punishment for turning away is usually ultimate.



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People aren't stupid.

Yet a person who is not stupid is likely to give up their own sensibilities in order to be a part of something.  Scientific study has observed this effect, it's called groupthink.


Quote

They go with that which works for them.There is absolutely nothing wrong with people wanting answers forgiveness or belonging. All three are very high on the hierachy of human needs. Are you suggesting they cannot have these things, or should manage without them? In practice that causes greater pain and psychological harm, again leading to physical illnesses, harm and ultimately, in many cases, suicide.

I am suggesting that as human beings the great answers are too great for us to comprehend.  Therefore we should practice faith rather than belief.

I'm suggesting that forgiveness comes from within first, not from without.

I'm suggesting that belonging is awesome, only if you belong because you're being true to yourself rather than liking or believing or buying or saying something because it will make you appear to belong.  This is something many people do (dare I say most?) even if you can't see it.

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#50    Coffey

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 04:08 PM

Well when the children look it up on the internet or find out later in life... The whole thing will backfire and they will hate the religion. So in the long run they are just making the situation worse for themselves and their religion. lol

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#51    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 04:25 PM

View PostCoffey, on 02 July 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

Well when the children look it up on the internet or find out later in life... The whole thing will backfire and they will hate the religion. So in the long run they are just making the situation worse for themselves and their religion. lol

Good point.. they most likely will look it up on line and find it is a Scottish myth  It could backfire and make the kids question more about their bible...they could be shooting themselves in the foot by doing this....These fundies have not go a single clue ...But I wouldn't be surprised if their ignorant teachers suggest that if they go on line and read that  Nessie was just a myth.. that the devil put it on there for them to read   sigh..To be a fundie ( like those teachers)  you really need to dumb yourself down to think like them...I have read some stupid ideas from a few fundies in the past, and reading them can make you drop a few IQ points  lol

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 02 July 2012 - 04:26 PM.

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#52    Coffey

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 04:39 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 02 July 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

Good point.. they most likely will look it up on line and find it is a Scottish myth  It could backfire and make the kids question more about their bible...they could be shooting themselves in the foot by doing this....These fundies have not go a single clue ...But I wouldn't be surprised if their ignorant teachers suggest that if they go on line and read that  Nessie was just a myth.. that the devil put it on there for them to read   sigh..To be a fundie ( like those teachers)  you really need to dumb yourself down to think like them...I have read some stupid ideas from a few fundies in the past, and reading them can make you drop a few IQ points  lol

HAHAHAHA. Reminds me of "The Waterboy". When his mum blames everything on the devil. LOL

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#53    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 04:46 PM

View PostCoffey, on 02 July 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

HAHAHAHA. Reminds me of "The Waterboy". When his mum blames everything on the devil. LOL

Ohhh yeaa   I remember that  lol.. Practically taking the piss out of the fundies that do in fact blame poor satan on everything ha ha...My mother is one of them !!  ( don't go there lol)

Ya know there are some fundies that have in fact suggested that the devil himself planted  fossils  to trick science into thinking they are millions of years old... Yup that's right.. the devil went to a lot of bother to think up a plan...then bury so many fossils...age them somehow...!!.. To only play some prank...to see if he can get smart people to stay away from Christianity  lol ... Straight up  some fundies do in fact believe the devil did it . What's worse is  other fundies defending it and ranting at others who find it funny...I have at least one fundie rant at me once a week  lol :P

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 02 July 2012 - 04:47 PM.

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#54    Hazzard

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 05:01 PM

Religion and good education doesnt always go hand in hand.


#55    spud the mackem

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 05:07 PM

Hi guys, If a Scotsman like El-D says Nessie aint real, why does tourists spend hours watching Loch Ness ?. The Scottish Tourist Trade has just crashed , now they'll just have to go looking for King Arthurs Castle .Or maybe go to Tasmania to look for the Devil . p.s Dracula's grave is in a churchyard in Whitby U.K.

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#56    Coffey

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 05:08 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 02 July 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

Ohhh yeaa   I remember that  lol.. Practically taking the piss out of the fundies that do in fact blame poor satan on everything ha ha...My mother is one of them !!  ( don't go there lol)

Ya know there are some fundies that have in fact suggested that the devil himself planted  fossils  to trick science into thinking they are millions of years old... Yup that's right.. the devil went to a lot of bother to think up a plan...then bury so many fossils...age them somehow...!!.. To only play some prank...to see if he can get smart people to stay away from Christianity  lol ... Straight up  some fundies do in fact believe the devil did it . What's worse is  other fundies defending it and ranting at others who find it funny...I have at least one fundie rant at me once a week  lol :P

Hahaha, yeah I've heard them say that as well.

i've also heard the one where God put them there to test us. LOL

View Postspud the mackem, on 02 July 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

Hi guys, If a Scotsman like El-D says Nessie aint real, why does tourists spend hours watching Loch Ness ?. The Scottish Tourist Trade has just crashed , now they'll just have to go looking for King Arthurs Castle .Or maybe go to Tasmania to look for the Devil . p.s Dracula's grave is in a churchyard in Whitby U.K.

I took it as he meant Nessie is real.. Jokingly of course.

I'm from the same area as Eldarado. All i will say is... If Nessie isn't real... Then how do they know it's name! :P

Edited by Coffey, 02 July 2012 - 05:10 PM.

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#57    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 05:15 PM

View PostCoffey, on 02 July 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Hahaha, yeah I've heard them say that as well.

i've also heard the one where God put them there to test us. LOL


Ha ha yes that's right. that's when they forget that God is meant to be all knowing, therefore wouldn't need to test anyone.. he already knew the outcome . I swear to goodness some people will use any lame duck excuse and think that it is intelligent !!

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#58    Eldorado

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 05:54 PM

View Postspud the mackem, on 02 July 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

Hi guys, If a Scotsman like El-D says Nessie aint real, why does tourists spend hours watching Loch Ness ?. The Scottish Tourist Trade has just crashed , now they'll just have to go looking for King Arthurs Castle .Or maybe go to Tasmania to look for the Devil . p.s Dracula's grave is in a churchyard in Whitby U.K.

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 06:14 PM

Quote

THOUSANDS of American school pupils are to be taught that the Loch Ness monster is real – in an attempt by religious teachers to disprove Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution.

I look forward to these kids coming up against some of the skeptics in  the Cryptozoology section of UM in the near future. There should be some fireworks there...

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#60    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 07:15 PM

Humans are uniqe spicies.

Although I believe in evoultion theory its not fully explained. It have holes.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."





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