109 replies to this topic

[Leonardo]

^^ What Nibs said.

Except I haven't been to Area 51, or tried religion, or been ghost hunting, or wandered the wilderness...

So, what I meant to say was really nothing like what Nibs said, but she's still right.

[Scepticus]

There's only 1 real "skeptic" in this topic. So if you want an answer from a real skeptic, you should only listen to Nibs.

The real definition of being skeptic is to inquire or to find out. The rest who thinks they are "skeptics" are just more akin to cynicism.

A little scenario.

Person 1: I have just seen a ghost!

The skeptic: Okay! Where and when.

Person 1: Yesterday in the woods.

The skeptic: Okay, let's see if we can find any evidence.
---------
Person 1: I have just seen a ghost!

The cynic: No you haven't, do you have any evidence to back up that claim?


Bottom line, real skeptics reply because they want to find out. The cynic reply because they want to show you, that you are wrong.

Edited by Scepticus, 27 April 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[_Only]

HerNibs, on 27 April 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

I also find it disturbing that many posters take critical examination of their "proof" as a personal attack on them as a human being.

Someone's human emotion getting the better of them when it shouldn't? In what area of argument does this not commonly happen? Disturbing is a strong word.

Quote

There's only 1 real "skeptic" in this topic. So if you want an answer from a real skeptic, you should only listen to Nibs.

Who the heck are you to know this??

Edited by _Only, 27 April 2012 - 02:02 PM.

[Ecto76]

I thought this was a great topic...? I am happy that we can all answer or reply without being rude or making fun of the poster. Bravo to all so far!

I understand skeptics wanting to learn more and offering a rational, logical reason etc; I am sure somewhere out there it is appreciated by some. What I am having trouble with is, I think there are two types of skeptics. There are those who just don't believe in it. Period! There are those who disprove it but keep an open mind by listening to what there is to offer by the believer.

As a believer, all I ask is to keep in mind there are different types of believers too. Why do I believe? As some stated; I have had my experiences I cannot explain. I have collected great evidence over the years that keep me believing that I haven't been able to disprove. Most of all, I investigate to help my clients have a better understanding of it and help the community with the knowledge I have thus far.

I do not need to prove to anyone my belief's because I em entitled to them. I'm a disprover. I keep things real, simple and objective when I investigate. Not everything is paranormal, not everything has an explanation or at least have not come up with a natural explanation.

I don't think its fair to believers if some skeptics make fun of, dismiss right away or just don't give them the benefit of the doubt. It was the believer who had the experience not you. The skeptic wasn't there. You did not investigate the location. So how can you dismiss something without investigating it?

I always said that skeptics and investigators have something in common. We all search for proof. A skeptic will always be a skeptic until they experience it for themselves. Just like I tell those in my lectures when I teach... I am not here to turn people into believers. So don't try and turn us into skeptics or dismiss our stories without listening or investigating them!

Just trying to keep things real around here! Keep things peaceful and let the healthy debate keep rolling on!

[HerNibs]

Ecto76, on 27 April 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

I thought this was a great topic...? I am happy that we can all answer or reply without being rude or making fun of the poster. Bravo to all so far!

I understand skeptics wanting to learn more and offering a rational, logical reason etc; I am sure somewhere out there it is appreciated by some. What I am having trouble with is, I think there are two types of skeptics. There are those who just don't believe in it. Period! There are those who disprove it but keep an open mind by listening to what there is to offer by the believer.

As a believer, all I ask is to keep in mind there are different types of believers too. Why do I believe? As some stated; I have had my experiences I cannot explain. I have collected great evidence over the years that keep me believing that I haven't been able to disprove. Most of all, I investigate to help my clients have a better understanding of it and help the community with the knowledge I have thus far.

I do not need to prove to anyone my belief's because I em entitled to them. I'm a disprover. I keep things real, simple and objective when I investigate. Not everything is paranormal, not everything has an explanation or at least have not come up with a natural explanation.

I don't think its fair to believers if some skeptics make fun of, dismiss right away or just don't give them the benefit of the doubt. It was the believer who had the experience not you. The skeptic wasn't there. You did not investigate the location. So how can you dismiss something without investigating it?

I always said that skeptics and investigators have something in common. We all search for proof. A skeptic will always be a skeptic until they experience it for themselves. Just like I tell those in my lectures when I teach... I am not here to turn people into believers. So don't try and turn us into skeptics or dismiss our stories without listening or investigating them!

Just trying to keep things real around here! Keep things peaceful and let the healthy debate keep rolling on!

Well, just to start, a personal experience isn't evidence.  It is exactly what it is, a personal experience.  

Just as a example - take a peek at the "Vampire" and "Werewolves" threads.  They get insane.  Individuals insist that "everything is possible" and when a skeptic explains "No, everything is NOT possible" it can get crazy.

Yes, each person is entitled to their beliefs but to hold on to these beliefs blindly without trying to accept that a simple explanation may be correct is just as bad as some one blindly dismissing some one's idea of "proof".

Yes, we all search for "proof" but the definition of "proof" seems to broaden to extremes in some situations.

Nibs

[JGirl]

Englishgent, on 27 April 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

Hi Simbi.

Whilst I agree that people should not be rude, in as much as telling people to go visit the qwack, what you must remember is that this is an open forum. There are going to be times when people disagree and give their opinions. Provided those opinions are not insuilting, then they should be taken on board. It is no use saying that if you dont believe in it, dont post. Where would that get anyone?
If only people who were allowed to believe were allowed to post, then we would probably end up with totally exagerated experiences, each one trying to out-do the other.
I am not saying this would occur every time but it is certainly a possiblility. Where would that get anyone?
The other reason skeptics post on threads is because they are generally, truly interested in whatever phenonemon is being discussed and if they see some thing that they can really believe in, then they will lean more towards that particular topic.  Dont believe any skeptic that says otherwise! (Other than the ones who do just come in to throw insults)
I believe in certain paranormal phenonenom, which I wont go into in detail here, but I like to read the threads and make my own mind up. If I feel it neceassry I will post and ask questions. If the OP wishes to take my questions the wrong way, then I could throw your post back at you and say...''Why bother posting something if you will not accept anybody who questions you?''
All skeptics are trying to do is find a rational explanation for something. If the OP refuses to answer questions, that in itself makes the topic even more unbelievable.
Basically, what I am saying is this.  The OP has to listen to debate and think rationally to establish whether or not they have experienced something truly paranormal, just as the skeptics will ask questions to establish if there is any other possible explanaiton.

edit....Hi Ecto, .i hope that answers your question as well

well said

[Ecto76]

Just saying... your offering an opinion. All are entitled to their opinion.

Yes, you are right. A personal experience is not evidence... though I'd like to think unless it is documented well, it can be evidence? Depends on the situation.

I said in another topic, alternative explanations are great. It can put clients at ease. They aren't always the right explanations. Skeptics want evidence and ask for proof. As an investigator, I want those same things. I ask that everyone try and separate those type of people from one another. Somewhere in there... we all have mutual respect.  

[karmakazi]

I am skeptical as to whether or not ghosts, spirits, etc are real, but I would love to know those answers!  I think it would be awesome if we were able to prove the existence of such and then be able to study the phenomenon.  

Because of that, we must weed out the false or misunderstood claims to get to the ones that genuinely cannot be explained.  Think about it - if a scientist were attempting to study the way durham wheat grows, but in the beds where he planted the wheat someone else planted thousands of soft red wheat seeds, it would be very hard for that scientist to appropriately study the durham wheat.  Not only would it be necessary to determine which plants were the right ones, but the presence of the other plants would affect the natural growing patterns and make the study uncontrolled.

Human beings are capable of lying, misunderstanding and faking things.  With a subject such as this were nothing has yet been proved and any phenomena is sporadic and cannot be consistently recorded, the path is muddy enough.  Adding the human factor and software like the one that allows easy faking of ghost photos from phones, you have one giant, messed up freaking haystack that MIGHT have a needle in it but might NOT.

We should be thankful for the skeptics who quickly explain/dismiss things, because if the day ever comes where a piece of evidence comes out and the skeptics are not sure what to make of it, we just might finally have some proof worth examining.

Edited by karmakazi, 27 April 2012 - 04:42 PM.

[Rafterman]

Wearer of Hats, on 27 April 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

Most/many skeptics are, IMO, people who want what we're talking about to be true and are pissed off by the sort of rubbish people peddle as evidence. Hey, I want aliens, Atlantis and the Yeti all to be real. Hell, throw in faeries and angels. But I'm a skeptic through and through, I want evidence I or someone smarter then me can't disprove through reasoned analyse and a debater who doesn't get their knickers in a knot whenever someone says "that's rubbish" or "prove it".

Totally agree.

[CakeOrDeath]

Ecto76, on 27 April 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

I thought this was a great topic...? I am happy that we can all answer or reply without being rude or making fun of the poster. Bravo to all so far!

I understand skeptics wanting to learn more and offering a rational, logical reason etc; I am sure somewhere out there it is appreciated by some. What I am having trouble with is, I think there are two types of skeptics. There are those who just don't believe in it. Period! There are those who disprove it but keep an open mind by listening to what there is to offer by the believer.

As a believer, all I ask is to keep in mind there are different types of believers too. Why do I believe? As some stated; I have had my experiences I cannot explain. I have collected great evidence over the years that keep me believing that I haven't been able to disprove. Most of all, I investigate to help my clients have a better understanding of it and help the community with the knowledge I have thus far.I do not need to prove to anyone my belief's because I em entitled to them. I'm a disprover. I keep things real, simple and objective when I investigate. Not everything is paranormal, not everything has an explanation or at least have not come up with a natural explanation.

I don't think its fair to believers if some skeptics make fun of, dismiss right away or just don't give them the benefit of the doubt. It was the believer who had the experience not you. The skeptic wasn't there. You did not investigate the location. So how can you dismiss something without investigating it?

I always said that skeptics and investigators have something in common. We all search for proof. A skeptic will always be a skeptic until they experience it for themselves. Just like I tell those in my lectures when I teach... I am not here to turn people into believers. So don't try and turn us into skeptics or dismiss our stories without listening or investigating them!

Just trying to keep things real around here! Keep things peaceful and let the healthy debate keep rolling on!

So here, is where the horrible, mean skeptics take issue. - look at the bolded statement above in your own post. Again you are making a claim of evidence.  Skeptics like me would LOVE evidence trust me.  So what evidence can you present that can't be readily explained/disproved using rational thinking? I am anxious and listening.

How do you "help" people with paranormal issues, when you don't even know what the paranormal is? Skeptics worry that these paranormal-professionals can do more harm than good, propogating false premises and pseudo-sciences.  I'm sure the electronics industry believes in ghosts, they have probably sold more EMF meters over the last 5 years than in the previous 50!

Suggesting that skeptics of this forum shouldn't post in threads were beleivers post their stories just shows us who the "close minded" segment of the community really is.

Edited by CakeOrDeath, 27 April 2012 - 06:19 PM.

[Paranormalcy]

I agree with pretty much all the sentiment expressed here, from the explanations of what most people go through that compels them to post on a paranormal site, from a skeptical point of view, but also that while it is easy to want to pigeonhole people and views into "skeptic" and "believer", except for simplicity's sake, there is so much more depth to both, and you can't paint with that wide a brush in reality.

I think the reason "skeptics" post here is really, the same reason believers do, from an underlying motive point-of-view. Both want to share and learn and help others learn. I post, for example, alternate explanations or things that someone should take into consideration when they report seeing figures or hearing things when they wake up from being asleep, because it keeps people from reinventing the wheel and puts them right on track to sort their experiences, realizing they could either be mundane misidentified ones, or they can reply with information that defies those types of explanations, and I myself learn something, new reals or experiences, that I then need to look into further. It is a checks and balances situation, where we keep each other, and ourselves, "honest", and informed, by providing what we know, to others, and having them respond in kind, with hopefully both (all) of us learning something new, or even just that our idea is confirmed, or not, all of which are valid and useful results.

[JGirl]

Scepticus, on 27 April 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

There's only 1 real "skeptic" in this topic. So if you want an answer from a real skeptic, you should only listen to Nibs.

The real definition of being skeptic is to inquire or to find out. The rest who thinks they are "skeptics" are just more akin to cynicism.

A little scenario.

Person 1: I have just seen a ghost!

The skeptic: Okay! Where and when.

Person 1: Yesterday in the woods.

The skeptic: Okay, let's see if we can find any evidence.
---------
Person 1: I have just seen a ghost!

The cynic: No you haven't, do you have any evidence to back up that claim?


Bottom line, real skeptics reply because they want to find out. The cynic reply because they want to show you, that you are wrong.

you don't have to travel the world to inquire and find out. you can sit in the library or perhaps make some calls. that is also inquiring and finding out. hey, you could even come to forums online to inquire and find out. i do...

yes there is a difference between a skeptic and a cynic.
a skeptic wants to get at the truth, the reality of a thing.
a cynic just wants to cast doubt. not really interested in what is being discussed, just wanting to be contrary to it.
by that definition, there are not that many cynics on these boards. mostly just weary skeptics, reading the same fantasies over and over.

[CakeOrDeath]

You probably think I am being sarcastic, but in your own post you mentioned collecting great evidence over the years.  I am sincerely interested in at least hearing about your findings.

Again it's the reason I read these threads, the "what if" one day I log on and there is a post about some experiences with some decent evidence, something not even 100% concrete, but something that stands against the typical scrutiny we skeptics normally throw at it.

I like truly unexplainable stories that can be theorized about but not truly disproven.  Like the IRAN UFO incident, (even hazzard is interested in that one hehe) and the the real life Entity case that Sakari introduced me to.  

So, please feel free to share some of the overwhelming evidence you have collected that led you to know that the paranormal is real.

Thanks!

[WhyDontYouBeliEveMe]

i am a true believer ,
wel i think we all just want 1 thing...    

skeptic = listen to me i am  right !
believer =  no you listen to me i am right. !
so lets declare war ! on who is right or wrong. ! ah wait the war is alrdy going on ..

[_Only]

WhyDontYouBeliEveMe, on 27 April 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

i am a true believer ,
wel i think we all just want 1 thing...    

skeptic = listen to me i am  right !
believer =  no you listen to me i am right. !
so lets declare war ! on who is right or wrong. ! ah wait the war is alrdy going on ..

Lol, I think it's time for the war to stop. Points, thoughts, facts, and feelings tossed back and forth without so much ego, or us vs. them getting in the way. Maybe I'm just a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

Well, I am, but only in screen name.