Obamacare average $20K per family!

[AsteroidX]

It begs the question. What are we the average American gonna do about this ?

[Startraveler]

Now is what comes to question is the deductible a reimbursable tax. As in will the government give me back that 4381 dollars at the end of the year ? Or will it be a tax deduction meaning my taxable income is reduced by that much. Its tax law and Im not gonna drive myself figuring out which way they set it up but unless Im getting that check at the end of the year Ive been paying anywhere from 5% of my income to over 50% of my income depending on my tax burden.

I would certainly claim 12 the entire year if I was not getting reimbursement for the deduction.

It sounds like you're asking if the premium tax credit is refundable. Yes, you'll get that financial assistance even if your tax burden is, or gets reduced to, zero. More importantly, it's advanceable, meaning you don't have to wait until the end of the year or tax time to claim it, you'll get it upfront when you go to buy insurance.

So if you didn't have an insurance plan through your job, you would log into your state exchange's website and start shopping. Once you're done comparing insurers, and benefits, and plans, etc you'll go to buy and when you do it will calculate your contribution--subtracting out the share covered by the federal tax credit--and charge you that; the remainder (i.e. the value of your premium tax credit) will be paid to the insurance company by the government.

There is also different kind of plans bronze,silver,gold, and platinum. The one I used (default) was silver. One other little known is there is a 3 to 1 limit meaning in family plans it is capped at 3 children per adult so a single mother of 4 would have to buy an additional policy for the 4th child.

The value of the premium tax credit is set by the costs of a particular silver plan in the market. In other words, if you're eligible for that subsidy, it's value doesn't change based on the plan you ultimately choose in the marketplace. You can choose to buy a more expensive silver plan than the default, or even a gold or platinum plan, and you'll have to pay a larger share of its cost.

Alternatively, you could buy a cheaper bronze plan and find that your contribution is less because the premium tax credit covers more of the plan's costs.

Anyway, I think you're misinterpreting something you heard about the 3:1 bit.

[Gromdor]

Well, from what everyone is saying in these posts, people are planning on not having insurance and paying the fine. Not much of a step-up from before where people didn't have insurance and didn't pay a fine.

I see three possible futures. 1) Obamacare magically works and the problems are solved.

2) Obamacare fails and we go to socialized medicine.

3) Obamacare fails and we say screw it and let free market and social darwinism kick in. Suspend the hippocratic oath and refuse to treat patients without insurance or cash.

All of these options have their negatives of course.

[F3SS]

It sounded too crazy, which is why I went directly to the Obamacare facts website http://obamacarefact...f-obamacare.php

They have their Obamacare calculator, you can see that as you scroll down to - Obamacare cost calculator

I put in $120,000 as an income for a family of 4..and it gave me - http://healthreform....lculator.aspx Anyone can use that and enter their own income per year and see what it tells you

I know not every working American family will be earning $120,000 per year, but I entered that due to the fact you mentioned it as an example.. I saw a completely different cost.. BUT if they are changing it in a few years, to a much higher cost, I would like to see facts on that.. Something official from the government itself..I am not arguing you are wrong, I just feel it sounds too crazy to be true...I am hooping it is wrong, because I would think doing that is absolutely disgusting...I have seen people in the UK and Ireland crack up and go nuts at their government if anything like this ever came out.... So I would think that CNN and other news stations would be reporting something about it soon or already have?

A lot of families barely earn $20K a year...Something about this story doesn't add up... If I am wrong ( and that could be the case ) I would rather see something from the government to show me facts ..

Hi BM, I see you're questioning my words and the story. The thing is I'm not just taking an articles word for it. This is an example right out of the IRS handbook as per the end of the OP. Obamacarefact.com looks no less than biased. Dispelling the Myths, ha. Isn't it a shame there are more myths than facts known to most people? And the calculator? Seems ok but what the hell does the Kaiser Family Foundation know that the IRS doesn't? The IRS is going to be making the calls, not the Kaiser Family.

You know what I think BM? You should prepare to be disgusted.

I came up with about $13,900 using those specs and the calculator. Multiply that by 18 years. $250,200 of your hard earned money going right into the government abyss.

And if Asteroid is right about the 3:1 kid thing, which I hope he isn't, then you can rest uneasy knowing that Obamacare is undoubtedly suggesting to you not to have more than 3 kids if you can't afford it. While I don't necessarily disagree with that I do disagree that it is the governments place to put a price on such a decision.

[ninjadude]

I came up with about $13,900 using those specs and the calculator. Multiply that by 18 years. $250,200 of your hard earned money going right into the government abyss.

Obamacare is not government healthcare so it's not going to the government. It's going to insurance companies. Those who have been getting insurance thru their employers have been paying this for a long time. What do you think insurance is for?

[AsteroidX]

Obamacare is not government healthcare so it's not going to the government. It's going to insurance companies. Those who have been getting insurance thru their employers have been paying this for a long time. What do you think insurance is for?

healthcare of which I receive zero of unless I pay out of pocket

[F3SS]

Obamacare is not government healthcare so it's not going to the government. It's going to insurance companies. Those who have been getting insurance thru their employers have been paying this for a long time. What do you think insurance is for?

It's the driving force behind the what we are talking about. I think insurance is for one to decide for themselves whether they spend money on it or not and how much.

[Jinxdom]

Change hurts, this is what happens when people do not take a stand against bad business strategies early on. A good thing can come from this when all of the private insurance companies drop, we could try something different like voting someone in(I'll be 35 in 5 years and a US citizen *nudge* *nudge*) who could lower or remove the tax and basically have a pay directly to the doctors instead of being forced to go through a corrupt intermediary. It isn't as bad as it could be.

[Gummug]

Obamacare is not government healthcare so it's not going to the government. It's going to insurance companies. Those who have been getting insurance thru their employers have been paying this for a long time. What do you think insurance is for?

What I'd like to know is, if it's not going to the goverment (the money), then why is it called a tax? That's beyond bizarre if you ask me.

[lightly]

What I'd like to know is, if it's not going to the goverment (the money), then why is it called a tax? That's beyond bizarre if you ask me.

I'd like to know too. Where will the money from the "FINE" or "TAX" go? WHO will get that money?

[AsteroidX]

Its a grand pyramid scheme. Im sure Madoff is laughing from his Federal prison bed as he reads this stuff in the papers and magazines he gets to read. The money is going into thin air lightly. Or what the government will claim to reimburse "the deduction" portion of the low income.

So whats happens if you pay the fine. Do you still get healthcare or are you refused services ? Will they charge you out of pocket if youve paid the fine ? Because since you paid the "tax" doesnt that make you a participant....Some really fuzzy stuff going on in this bill. Were just learning now what it is. But IMO it doesnt look good for us till Jinx turns erm 45 (as thats the minimum age to be POTUS I believe).

[+joc]

Its a grand pyramid scheme. Im sure Madoff is laughing from his Federal prison bed as he reads this stuff in the papers and magazines he gets to read. The money is going into thin air lightly. Or what the government will claim to reimburse "the deduction" portion of the low income.

So whats happens if you pay the fine. Do you still get healthcare or are you refused services ? Will they charge you out of pocket if youve paid the fine ? Because since you paid the "tax" doesnt that make you a participant....Some really fuzzy stuff going on in this bill. Were just learning now what it is. But IMO it doesnt look good for us till Jinx turns erm 45 (as thats the minimum age to be POTUS I believe).

Fuzzy stuff? No. It's very clear. It was only FUZZY when Palosi told Congress they needed to pass the bill in order to find out what was in it. Now we are finding out. And it is no big surprise.

It's really very simple. Single Payer is exactly what this bill was designed to create. So, who has twenty grand for insurance? No one. So, now you MUST pay the two grand fine. Wallah, you now have an insurance premium of about 200 dollars a month (whether you want it or not) and you and your family is covered. So what's the big deal.....

....the big deal is: Where are you going to go for services? Consider that reality for a moment (follow me here) Quick story: Two years ago I got punched in the face during a Taekwondo Sparring match...I needed stitches. I don't have insurance. If I went to the ER they would have stitched up my eye. Then, I would have received a bill for around $2000. So, I went to a Care Now emergency clinic. They said because I didn't have insurance it would cost $400...cash. So, I went to an ATM...withdrew $400 and got 5 stitches over my left eye.

THINK about this same scenario happening when Obama care is fully implemented. They cannot refuse to stitch up my eye. By law they must! Then they'll bill the Government for the service. Do you think the Government is going to pay them $400? Phfft! No. The end result is these clinics will be baraged with 'Johnny skinned his knee' patients and they won't be able to afford to stay in business. They will be the first to go. Then what? You go to the hospital. Ever been to an ER that is set up as a designated hospital by the county. They still charge you but if you can't pay, well the county will pick up the cost. It's a freaking zoo! Been there...done that. It took 8 hours to see a doctor for 2 minutes and a prescription.

So, you are locked into that nightmare scenario. Fighing the masses for some antibiotics.

And there isn't anything you can do about it. But...the majority of Americans should be proud of their new $2000+ tax! Quit compaining about the increase in PayRoll taxes and the $25 being sucked out of every paycheck for that...Stand up and shout Hurrah!! for the new Insurance Premium you are now forced to pay...because it WILL come out of your paycheck whether you like it or not.....AND...get ready to lose the Child Tax Refund...we have enough unwed mothers with 5 babies to insure that the 'status quo voter' is up and running for generations. So, kiss that goodbye.

Let's celebrate people! You wanted it! You got it! Party down!!

[Beckys_Mom]

And if Asteroid is right about the 3:1 kid thing, which I hope he isn't, then you can rest uneasy knowing that Obamacare is undoubtedly suggesting to you not to have more than 3 kids if you can't afford it. While I don't necessarily disagree with that I do disagree that it is the governments place to put a price on such a decision.

I don't know if he has taken the 3.1 part in the wrong light.. But I do feel that if you guys ran it all the same as we do in N.Ireland and in the UK, paying national insurance, which is approx a quarter of the amount of tax you pay each month in your pay slips... That would be so much easier ... We never have to worry about paying for medical bills We never need to take out health insurance in the same way you guys do.. Your national insurance pays for all medical treatments ..

[AsteroidX]

which is approx a quarter of the amount of tax you pay each month in your pay slips... That would be so much easier ... We never have to worry about paying for medical bills We never need to take out health insurance in the same way you guys do.. Your national insurance pays for all medical treatments ..

What percentage of your monthly income is payed for national healthinsurance.

Truly thats the system I believe people envisioned. Not the one were getting. But Id like to hear what the number is before I commit.

[AsteroidX]

Ive looked for it again and does appear I might have misinterpreted what I was reading.

I don't know if he has taken the 3.1 part in the wrong light.

[+joc]

I don't know if he has taken the 3.1 part in the wrong light.. But I do feel that if you guys ran it all the same as we do in N.Ireland and in the UK, paying national insurance, which is approx a quarter of the amount of tax you pay each month in your pay slips... That would be so much easier ... We never have to worry about paying for medical bills We never need to take out health insurance in the same way you guys do.. Your national insurance pays for all medical treatments ..

This is the point where most Europeans just don't get why we don't want it. Please, let me explain...

Truly thats the system I believe people envisioned. Not the one were getting. But Id like to hear what the number is before I commit.

...See BeckysMom, the truth is what AsteroidX quoted above. The 'people' envisioned such a system...but that is NOT what the writers of the legislation had in mind. Here is the bloody truth: When Bill Clinton was president, the first lady...Hillary...was put in charge of revamping the health care industry. She did everything behind closed doors and the Republicans, who controlled both houses of Congress at the time, wouldn't even let it get out of the shopping cart.

But what went on behind those closed doors was the founding of what we have now...the Democrats...behind closed doors have been tweaking HillaryCare all this time...Now suddenly...Obama just has to have this massive bill passed without anyone having any time to study it. Why? Because if they had, the people would have bolted from it.

So, BeckysMom...this ObamaCare you hear about is NOTHING like what you have...it was created for an entirely different reason...it is purely a Democrat Invention without any Republicans having anything to do with. Designed by the Democrats for ONE purpose and one purpose only...to keep Democrats in power forever. This isn't designed to help Americans...this is designed purely to EnSlave Americans to Democrat control.

And I will go a step further...who do you think really controls the Democrats? Bill Clinton? Wrong. Obama? Wrong. George Soros? Wrong.

Moscow. ...and you people laughed at me when I said it the first time. Who do you think wins the game of an American system gone astray from its founding principles? Moscow. Think about it. Where did all the Go Green bs come from? Moscow. Ask yourselves this question: Who does Obama sound more like...George Washington or Joseph Stalin? The answer is...most Americans don't know anything about either one...that too by Democrat design.

[Beckys_Mom]

What percentage of your monthly income is payed for national healthinsurance.

Truly thats the system I believe people envisioned. Not the one were getting. But Id like to hear what the number is before I commit.

It depends on your income and your circumstances Asteriod .. Everyone differs depending on the amount of earnings we make ... Example - Say your monthly income was $2000, your national insurance would approx $160 Again it all depends on on your circumstances, and your earnings each month, whether you are married, widowed, single and so on .. I have never had a monthly pay slip that made me feel I paid too much each month for National Insurance It makes it all easier

You could find yourself in a road accident, and badly injured, but still can make it.. You and your family wont worry about whether or not you have insurance that will cover your treatments..It is all taken care of Everyone employed throughout the country are paying their National Insurance.. Those who are slef employed have a fixed rate to pay for National Insurance. I can't imagine laying up in hospital and someone handing me a massive bill.. That would be alien to me ..

Ive looked for it again and does appear I might have misinterpreted what I was reading.

The 3.1 ? I am sure it was just a mistake...No worries

Edited February 3, 2013 by Beckys_Mom

[AsteroidX]

It depends on your income and your circumstances Asteriod .. Everyone differs depending on the amount of earnings we make ... Example - Say your monthly income was $2000, your national insurance would approx $160 Again it all depends on on your circumstances, and your earnings each month, whether you are married, widowed, single and so on .. I have never had a monthly pay slip that made me feel I paid too much each month for National Insurance It makes it all easier

You could find yourself in a road accident, and badly injured, but still can make it.. You and your family wont worry about whether or not you have insurance that will cover your treatments..It is all taken care of Everyone employed throughout the country are paying their National Insurance.. Those who are slef employed have a fixed rate to pay for National Insurance. I can't imagine laying up in hospital and someone handing me a massive bill.. That would be alien to me .

So just under 10% of your monthly income at that earnings rate. I pay perhaps 1k a year in health related expenses but cannot afford insurance so many times I cannot see a doctor for things I perhaps should. I fit into that about 20k a year group. So my medical expenses would double BUT I would have health insurance under the Ireland system. We already pay a medicare and medicaid tax which Im assuming could be phased out under a European style system. So at its face value without crunching any other numbers I think it is worlds above what we are being offered.

The next question I have is do they try to regulate your health..ie do smokers or obese pay a higher premium ? Obese is a diagnosis given to anyone in America that there BMI (base mnass index calculated based on height/weight proportions) is 25% above normal.

Is everyone insured equally regardless of lifestyle choices?.

Thats one of the big bombs in this plan is taxing smokers and obese at a higher rate then those that dont fall into those categories is being looked at putting a tax on a specific paret of the population which is unconstitutional. It would be similiar to charging Hispanics more for having a child because they generally have more children.

[Startraveler]

What I'd like to know is, if it's not going to the goverment (the money), then why is it called a tax? That's beyond bizarre if you ask me.

The tax is what you pay if you don't have health insurance. If you do have health insurance, you're just paying your monthly premium to the insurance company.

But what went on behind those closed doors was the founding of what we have now...the Democrats...behind closed doors have been tweaking HillaryCare all this time...Now suddenly...Obama just has to have this massive bill passed without anyone having any time to study it. Why? Because if they had, the people would have bolted from it.

Max Baucus's Senate Finance Committee--which ultimately produced what we known as the Affordable Care Act--started having hearings in 2008 (as well as a health reform summit) on the issues addressed by the legislation: http://www.finance.senate.gov/issue/?id=32be19bd-491e-4192-812f-f65215c1ba65

The White House hosted a public forum on health reform in early 2009.

But more importantly, there was a whole presidential election in 2008 in which health care featured prominently. Barack Obama presented a pretty pretty comprehensive vision of what health reform should look like and, as you may recall, he was elected president.

If folks feel like they weren't involved in the conversation, perhaps they shouldn't have gone to public forums with the sole intention of shouting down their representatives in the summer of 2009.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Startraveler

[AsteroidX]

The tax is what you pay if you don't have health insurance. If you do have health insurance, you're just paying your monthly premium to the insurance company.

Its a hidden tax. You have to recover your money through the IRS via deductions (unless your so wealthy you dont qualify for any) and the IRS will fine you if you dont carry the insurance. Therefore it is a tax.

[Beckys_Mom]

The next question I have is do they try to regulate your health..ie do smokers or obese pay a higher premium ? Obese is a diagnosis given to anyone in America that there BMI (base mnass index calculated based on height/weight proportions) is 25% above normal.

Is everyone insured equally regardless of lifestyle choices?.

National Insurance pays for your healthcare, but the main part pays for your state pension for when you retire ... It is not calculated on your health or lifestyle

[F3SS]

Its a hidden tax. You have to recover your money through the IRS via deductions (unless your so wealthy you dont qualify for any) and the IRS will fine you if you dont carry the insurance. Therefore it is a tax.

Yes but in the IRS language in the op it's called penalty, not a tax. Remember the SCOTUS determined it was a tax because you can't penalize Americans for not buying something. So conveniently it was ruled a tax though Obama didn't care what it was called so long as it was worded to pass. There was no integrity. So the IRS calls it what it really is right in its official handbook, a penalty. What's the deal? Seams it really is a penalty and the SCOTUS hearing was just a farce to shut us up.

Since this was in works way before Obama came to town I'll bet he never even read it either. I bet Rom Emanuel told him what the gist of it was about and explained its true purpose of control and slimeball Obama jumped all over it. It's name the affordable care act is a deception the same as the name federal reserve is a deception since it isn't federal.

These people work for us. They are our servant employees. Electing them to write laws is one thing but when they turn around and tells us that we have to purchase something very expensive for our entire lives, or at all for that matter, is wrong. It isn't right. Imagine, a company whose management decides to write into the rulebook that the CEOs have to buy something against their will and fine them by force if they don't designed only to be able to control the CEOs. That won't go well. We are all the CEOs of this nation. Washington is simply management. Arrrr

Edited February 3, 2013 by -Mr_Fess-

[AsteroidX]

National Insurance pays for your healthcare, but the main part pays for your state pension for when you retire ... It is not calculated on your health or lifestyle

This is gold

What we are doing is criminal to the People of this Country.

[Gromdor]

These people work for us. They are our servant employees. Electing them to write laws is one thing but when they turn around and tells us that we have to purchase something very expensive for our entire lives, or at all for that matter, is wrong. It isn't right. Imagine, a company whose management decides to write into the rulebook that the CEOs have to buy something against their will and fine them by force if they don't designed only to be able to control the CEOs. That won't go well. We are all the CEOs of this nation. Washington is simply management. Arrrr

If anything we are single share stock holders.

There are still tons of unanswered questions in Obamacare. The one that perks my interest is the fact that if you don't pay the fine the IRS can't garnish your wages or put a lien on your house or anything. It would be a civil matter- like a foreclosure or being an illegal immigrant. But in theory IRS can double the fine and sue you. Of course now that the supreme court has ruled it a tax, would it now become tax evasion and thus a felony? Would suck to lose your firearm rights because you didn't pay your Obamacare fine. If they go the first route, the fines wouldn't even cover the court costs.

[F3SS]

If anything we are single share stock holders.

There are still tons of unanswered questions in Obamacare. The one that perks my interest is the fact that if you don't pay the fine the IRS can't garnish your wages or put a lien on your house or anything. It would be a civil matter- like a foreclosure or being an illegal immigrant. But in theory IRS can double the fine and sue you. Of course now that the supreme court has ruled it a tax, would it now become tax evasion and thus a felony? Would suck to lose your firearm rights because you didn't pay your Obamacare fine. If they go the first route, the fines wouldn't even cover the court costs.

They can't garnish wages and enact liens? Hmm... I too have wondered about the tax evasion thing. And great point about becoming a felon and losing further rights. America, the land of becoming a criminal if you don't buy health insurance.

I have an accountant. When my taxes are due she separates them and I write several different checks. Not paying will be easy for me. I could just tell her I won't write the check. But what about all the e-filers out there. They'll be screwed when it comes time to hit the send button or decide to exit from explorer and not pay anything. There is going to be a lot of nail biting in households across the country, lots of family fights about how to handle the situation, much confusion, depression and anger once the masses start getting those dollar amounts they owe figured out.