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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#6526    Knul

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 08:23 PM

Katsburg - Kassel has been suggested by Ottema in the brochure Leeuwarden, De Middelzee en Het Oera Linda Boek, page 1 (no date). Similarly  Buda-Budapest and Nyfryasburch- Freiburch (Zwaben, Brisgau) come from Ottema. He does not mention Lumkamakja in this brochure. In his Geschiedkundige aanteekeningen en ophelderingen (1878) he says that the name Kattenburg still exists in Kassel and refers to Suetonius Vitell. 14: Catta mulier.


#6527    Abramelin

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 09:45 PM

View PostKnul, on 08 October 2011 - 08:23 PM, said:

Katsburg - Kassel has been suggested by Ottema in the brochure Leeuwarden, De Middelzee en Het Oera Linda Boek, page 1 (no date). Similarly  Buda-Budapest and Nyfryasburch- Freiburch (Zwaben, Brisgau) come from Ottema. He does not mention Lumkamakja in this brochure. In his Geschiedkundige aanteekeningen en ophelderingen (1878) he says that the name Kattenburg still exists in Kassel and refers to Suetonius Vitell. 14: Catta mulier.

It has been mentioned in this thread that Kattenburg could be (part of) Amsterdam

Wiki page about Kattenburg


#6528    The Puzzler

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 01:29 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 08 October 2011 - 08:07 PM, said:

-1- Al-Khwārizmī's "On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals" written about 825 AD;

-2- The first attack of the Vikings on Moorish Spain took place at 845 AD;

-3- Godfried the Seaking died (was murdered) in 885;

-4-The Thirteenth Caliphate - Iberia -  was among the most if not simply the most advanced example of Muslim civilization in history (including modern times, I'd like to add);

-5- The first person to publish "The oera Linda Book" was Ottema, and it was this same Ottema who had noticed that the numerals as introduced by the OLB Godfreyath the Witking were very similar to what he saw in a Dutch library (The Royal Library/"De Koninklijke Bibliotheek" in The Hague), ie. on a copy of a plate from the Alhambra (Granada).


.
OK Abe.

I will say I don't think the numerals can be reconciled in any other way.

I spent quite a while revising the whole OLB and I think somehow it might be interpreted to have been written earlier than it says leading one to think, in some parts at least. It seems clear enough on one hand but then I read some parts that just would be impossible to have written any earlier than certain dates and I just don't think it's being meant to read like it was earlier.

It's a hodge-podge of notes, old letters, rewritten again and again by numerous people copied from walls of the burgh's and entries written by people.

My own issue is not whether the OLB is a recent forgery but whether any of the events could actually be true in it.

Many parts of it I don't know what to make of or can't explain.

I don't think it's a simple matter of placing the things into Viking times, even though that works in some parts. The founding of Tyre can't be put into that time frame though.

AFter reading the part Adela wrote, it could be she herself made or created much of the original story, some is copied from the walls, other parts don't say so. I don't think it's necessary to interpret it as though the numbers are as old as it seems to say in the current format of the way the manuscript would have been collected together.

I find it a bigger enigma than Atlantis if that can be believed.

Edited by The Puzzler, 09 October 2011 - 01:36 AM.

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#6529    The Puzzler

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 01:44 AM

I'm reading Ottema's preface again because he seems to think the whole book shows no signs of being able to be able to be unnacceptable.

Alewyn's book has it all. Page 290-291 is Ottema's conclusion of the numerals.

He thinks that "the manner of expressing all numbers by ten signs the Arabs learnt in the WEST, though the form was in some measure corresponding with their writing, and was written from left to right, after the Western fashion. Our ciphers seem here to have sprung from the Fries ciphers (siffar), which form had the same origin as the handwriting and is derived from the lines of the Juul?"

He goes on in the next part to explain the books writers and it starts "the book as it lies before us consists of two parts, differing widely from each other, and of dates very far apart."

Anyway, I'm going to spend some time seeing how Ottema justifies some of this.

Edited by The Puzzler, 09 October 2011 - 01:45 AM.

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#6530    Knul

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 12:08 PM

As for the place name of Lumkamakia: this could be related to Lemego in the name of Johan van Lemego from Groningen, but I did not yet locate the go (gouw) Lemego.

Apart from this: how comes Aken in a story about a jouney along the river Rhine (p. 210). Aken is far away from the Rhine delta (lowlands)and close to the Meuse (Maas).


#6531    Knul

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 12:26 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 09 October 2011 - 01:44 AM, said:

I'm reading Ottema's preface again because he seems to think the whole book shows no signs of being able to be able to be unnacceptable.

Alewyn's book has it all. Page 290-291 is Ottema's conclusion of the numerals.

He thinks that "the manner of expressing all numbers by ten signs the Arabs learnt in the WEST, though the form was in some measure corresponding with their writing, and was written from left to right, after the Western fashion. Our ciphers seem here to have sprung from the Fries ciphers (siffar), which form had the same origin as the handwriting and is derived from the lines of the Juul?"

He goes on in the next part to explain the books writers and it starts "the book as it lies before us consists of two parts, differing widely from each other, and of dates very far apart."

Anyway, I'm going to spend some time seeing how Ottema justifies some of this.

As far as I know the Roman ciphers in the Annales were replaced by Arabic ciphers during the reign of Charles the Great. Sure, the OLB could not use the Roman ciphers as the history precedes Roman times. However, the author or copier made one mistake: III. Ut-a skrifta Minnos. (p. 56).

It has been said, that the page numbers have been added later on. In the letters between Over de Linden and Verwijs no missing parts have been reported. I suppose, that such missing parts remained with Verwijs and have not been handed over to Ottema. So there is a chance, that these pages can be found yet in the archives of Verwijs. We could then find out, who added the page numbers. I guess Verwijs.

Edited by Knul, 09 October 2011 - 12:36 PM.


#6532    Abramelin

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 12:41 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 09 October 2011 - 01:44 AM, said:

I'm reading Ottema's preface again because he seems to think the whole book shows no signs of being able to be able to be unnacceptable.

Alewyn's book has it all. Page 290-291 is Ottema's conclusion of the numerals.

He thinks that "the manner of expressing all numbers by ten signs the Arabs learnt in the WEST, though the form was in some measure corresponding with their writing, and was written from left to right, after the Western fashion. Our ciphers seem here to have sprung from the Fries ciphers (siffar), which form had the same origin as the handwriting and is derived from the lines of the Juul?"

He goes on in the next part to explain the books writers and it starts "the book as it lies before us consists of two parts, differing widely from each other, and of dates very far apart."

Anyway, I'm going to spend some time seeing how Ottema justifies some of this.

Ottema was wrong: it was  Al-Khwārizmī, a Muslem Persian, who learned about those numerals from the Indians and introduced them into the Muslem world, and after that they travelled to Europe.

They didn't learn about them in the west.


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Edited by Abramelin, 09 October 2011 - 12:54 PM.


#6533    Knul

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 12:45 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 08 October 2011 - 09:45 PM, said:

It has been mentioned in this thread that Kattenburg could be (part of) Amsterdam

Wiki page about Kattenburg

In my opinion this Katsburg is Katwijk (Brittenburg) close to Ljudsburg or Lydasburg (Leiden) in the Rhine delta (p. 210). I think Suder-Flyland is Holland (between West-Flyland and Walhallagara) (p. 10).

Edited by Knul, 09 October 2011 - 12:50 PM.


#6534    Abramelin

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 01:16 PM

View PostKnul, on 09 October 2011 - 12:08 PM, said:

As for the place name of Lumkamakia: this could be related to Lemego in the name of Johan van Lemego from Groningen, but I did not yet locate the go (gouw) Lemego.

Apart from this: how comes Aken in a story about a jouney along the river Rhine (p. 210). Aken is far away from the Rhine delta (lowlands)and close to the Meuse (Maas).

Maybe this might help:


ORTSNAMEN:

Lemgo (Lemego), Archidiakonat>P: Vizearchidiakon: Drosten gen. Schoteler
- Stadt 59-60, 77-78, 190, 209, 213,>P: Backhaus, Becker, Bentenberg, Hurch, Stertfedde, Tiderici

http://www.lwl.org/h..._Fraterhaus.pdf

This is all I could find; it appears to be the name of an Archdeaconry.

EDIT-1:

Benten-berg is north-west of Kassel, Backhaus south-west of Kassel (Germany).

EDIT-2:

Bingo:

Lemgo is a city in the Lippe district of North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany, with a population of c. 42,000.

It was founded in the 12th century by Bernhard II at the crossroad of two merchant routes. Lemgo was a member of the Hanseatic League, a medieval trading association of free cities in several northern European countries such as The Netherlands, Germany and Poland. In Lemgo the Ostwestfalen-Lippe University is situated
.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemgo

(For those who can read German, here's a lot more info on Lemgo: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemgo

Das Gebiet, in dem die heutige Stadt Lemgo liegt, wurde Anfang des 11. Jahrhunderts Limgauwe oder Limga )

To be honest: it doesn't sound much like "Lumkamakia". It's the sound shifts: if its true, then it started as "Lumk.." , then "Limg..." and finally "Lemg...".

And what is this 'makia'??

+++++

EDIT-3:

Wodin thene aldeste hêmde to Lumka-mâkja bi thêre Ê-mude to Ast-flyland by sin eldrum t-us.

Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in Oostflyland, with his parents.

This "Eemude" must be "Emden", a city in north-west Germany, at the North Sea coast: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emden

From this, combined with what I found out, Lemego/Lemgo/Limgauwe/Limga cannot be the same place as Lumka-makia.


++++++++

EDIT-4:

It appears "Lumka" or "Lumke" is a Frisian girls name:

Frisian names are similar to those of the rest of the Netherlands but some different forms occur. Many of these are taken from a poem printed in the 'Ostfriesche Nachrichten'.

http://www.infernald...Netherlands.htm

.

Edited by Abramelin, 09 October 2011 - 02:14 PM.


#6535    Abramelin

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 02:26 PM

Maybe we are looking in the wrong direction for this "Lumka-makia".

In the OLB Eemude is spelled like "Ê-mude". We all think either "Ems" (the river) or "Emden" (the city).

But doesn't it mean "Mouth of the river Ee"? Like in "E-mouth"?

There was a river with that name, "Ee", and it connected the Middel Sea with the Zuiderzee/Flevo Lake (presentday IJsselmeer).

Wiki page about river Ee


mouth
O.E. muþ, from P.Gmc. *munthaz (cf. O.Fris. muth, O.N. munnr, M.Du. mont, Ger. Mund, Goth. munþs "mouth"), with characteristic loss of nasal consonant in O.E. (cf. tooth, goose, etc.), from PIE *mnto-s (cf. L. mentum "chin"). In the sense of "outfall of a river" it is attested from early 12c.; as the opening of anything with capacity (a bottle, cave, etc.) it is recorded from c.1200.


http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none


==


EDIT:

Note: this is not to say Eemude = IJmuiden, its just to explain a bit more what I tried to show about the origin of that name "E-mude":


Many ancient rivers in the Netherlands were called "Ee", or "Aa" or even "ij" (pronounced like the -ey- in 'hey').

I did a bit of reshuffling of letters, and then I got it: IJmuiden = IJ-mude!!



History
In the Roman era, this Velsen district was already inhabited, and archeological finds at the impoldered lake of Wijkermeer[1] indicate there was a North Sea port of some regional importance built here[2]. Present day IJmuiden includes four harbors: the vissershaven (Ship's code IJM), a fishing dock (visafslag), the haringhaven, the IJmondhaven and the Seaport Marina IJmuiden, a harbour for pleasure craft. IJmuiden became the largest fishing port of the Netherlands after the island of Urk became closed in by the Afsluitdijk. The town suffered heavy damage and demolition during World War II, because of its maritime importance.

Mouth of the IJ
The IJmuiden name literally means “mouth of the IJ”, which is a hint to the importance the town has for the Amsterdam harbor. The name “IJmuiden” first appeared as IJ-muiden in lines written in 1848 by the professor and journalist (and, later, a liberal finance minister in the Van Lynden van Sandenburg Cabinet) Simon Vissering. The present IJmuiden form was eventually adopted in 1876, as the North Sea Canal was being completed in this section


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IJmuiden


.

Edited by Abramelin, 09 October 2011 - 02:51 PM.


#6536    The Puzzler

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 02:38 PM

I just remembered where I saw about the Chaldeans being priest-astrologers of Belus sent to the Euphrates.

Diodorus Siculus[2] claims that Belus founded a colony on the river Euphrates, and appointed the priests-astrologers whom the Babylonians call Chaldeans who like the priests of Egypt are exempt from taxation and other service to the state.
http://en.wikipedia....Belus_(Egyptian)

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#6537    Knul

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 04:17 PM

Just the text says, that Lumkamakia is in Ast-Flyland. This rules other possibilities out.


#6538    Knul

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 04:33 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 09 October 2011 - 01:16 PM, said:

Maybe this might help:


ORTSNAMEN:

Lemgo (Lemego), Archidiakonat>P: Vizearchidiakon: Drosten gen. Schoteler
- Stadt 59-60, 77-78, 190, 209, 213,>P: Backhaus, Becker, Bentenberg, Hurch, Stertfedde, Tiderici

http://www.lwl.org/h..._Fraterhaus.pdf

This is all I could find; it appears to be the name of an Archdeaconry.

EDIT-1:

Benten-berg is north-west of Kassel, Backhaus south-west of Kassel (Germany).

EDIT-2:

Bingo:

Lemgo is a city in the Lippe district of North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany, with a population of c. 42,000.

It was founded in the 12th century by Bernhard II at the crossroad of two merchant routes. Lemgo was a member of the Hanseatic League, a medieval trading association of free cities in several northern European countries such as The Netherlands, Germany and Poland. In Lemgo the Ostwestfalen-Lippe University is situated
.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemgo

(For those who can read German, here's a lot more info on Lemgo: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemgo

Das Gebiet, in dem die heutige Stadt Lemgo liegt, wurde Anfang des 11. Jahrhunderts Limgauwe oder Limga )

To be honest: it doesn't sound much like "Lumkamakia". It's the sound shifts: if its true, then it started as "Lumk.." , then "Limg..." and finally "Lemg...".

And what is this 'makia'??

+++++

EDIT-3:

Wodin thene aldeste hmde to Lumka-mkja bi thre -mude to Ast-flyland by sin eldrum t-us.

Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in Oostflyland, with his parents.

This "Eemude" must be "Emden", a city in north-west Germany, at the North Sea coast: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emden

From this, combined with what I found out, Lemego/Lemgo/Limgauwe/Limga cannot be the same place as Lumka-makia.


++++++++

EDIT-4:

It appears "Lumka" or "Lumke" is a Frisian girls name:

Frisian names are similar to those of the rest of the Netherlands but some different forms occur. Many of these are taken from a poem printed in the 'Ostfriesche Nachrichten'.

http://www.infernald...Netherlands.htm

.

This Lemgo could explain the name van Lemego. Well found ! But it is far from E-mude (Embden). Maybe Lumkamakja is an old name for Embden ? Lum- could be spelled as Lim-, Leim- (leem) or Lom-. This Wodin or Odin is said to be a viking. So the place should be found close to the sea and the mouth of the Eems. Maybe we have to look for it in the same atlases and sources as we did succesfully for Kerenak.


#6539    Abramelin

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 05:19 PM

View PostKnul, on 09 October 2011 - 04:33 PM, said:

This Lemgo could explain the name van Lemego. Well found ! But it is far from E-mude (Embden). Maybe Lumkamakja is an old name for Embden ? Lum- could be spelled as Lim-, Leim- (leem) or Lom-. This Wodin or Odin is said to be a viking. So the place should be found close to the sea and the mouth of the Eems. Maybe we have to look for it in the same atlases and sources as we did succesfully for Kerenak.

The spelling of the city is "Emden", and yes, it sounds close to E-mude.

But look closely at the way it is written in the OLB: E - mude.. or... the "mouth of the river Ee".

There was a small river with the name Ee... and it's mouth lay near a city called Lemmer.

Well, that doesn't sound much like "Lumka-makia", right?

OK, so I checked for maybe an older name, and this is what they think Lemmer was called centuries ago: Lemmerbroek or Lammerbroek.


In het jaar 1165 geeft bisschop Godfried van Utrecht aan de Friezen van
Lammerbroek een stuk grond in het stroomgebied van de Tjonger. Die grond lag tussen de oude loop van de Linde en Kuinre. Het is zeer waarschijnlijk dat diezelfde Friezen - van Lammerhoek of Lemsterhoek - op verzoek van de abt van het St. Oduifusklooster in Staveren de loop van de Kromme Ee bij Tacozijl hebben verbeterd en als ter zake kundigen later het Lindegebied onder handen namen in opdracht van die abt, die in dienst was van de bisschop van Utrecht. Van dit bisdom was Kuinre als 't ware een kolonie.

De Kromme Ee was vroeger een belangrijke verbinding tussen de Middelzee en het meer Flevo.


http://www.friesarch...ion=com_content
http://www.spanvis.n...rzijl/index.htm

In English:

In the year 1165 Bishop Godfried (LOL) of Utrecht gave a piece of land to the Frisians of Lammerbroek in the basin (?) of the river Tjonger

And the "Kromme Ee" is "Crooked/Bent/Curved Ee" in English, and it was an important connection between the Middel Sea and the Flevo Lake (future IJsselmeer).

So the city at the mouth of the Ee ("E-mude") was called "Lammerbroek" or ""Lemmerbroek" long ago; nowadays it's called "Lemmer".

It was also near that other 'interesting' river: the Linde, and located in the socalled "Lindegebied" = Linden area = Lindenoorden, heh.

My guess? "Lumkamakia" was a nickname for a city.

And the "kamakia" part makes me think of something, despite the fact that the name is written in the OLB like this, "Lumka-makia".


+++++++

EDIT:

"Lumka" or "Lumke" is a Frisian girl's name.

"Makia"?

mak-ia 70 und häufiger?, mek-k-ia, mait-ia, meit-ia, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd.
machen, reparieren, bauen, festsetzen, gerichtlich entscheiden, freisprechen,
verurteilen, beschuldigen, verklagen, erklären, erweisen, unter etwas bringen,
pfänden; ne. make (V.), repair (V.), build (V.), decide, accuse (V.), declare; Vw.:
s. for-,
*lÆk-, ðt-, wi-ther-; Hw.: s. mek; vgl. ae. macian, anfrk. makon, as. makon*,
ahd. mahhæn; Q.: R, B, E, H, W, F, S; E.: germ. *makæn, sw. V., machen, kneten;
idg. *ma-, V., kneten, drücken, streichen, machen, Pokorny 696; W.: nfries.
maaikjen, V., machen; L.: Hh 68b, Rh 914b


http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-M.pdf



LOL, maybe someone had a problem with a Frisian girl named "Lumka". And why?

"Kamakia" is Greek for "Harpoon".

"My sweatheart, Lumka, the harpoon".

Lum-ka-kamakia.......

Btw: (damned if I can find it again, but I read somewhere that) Lemmer was once a city in Friesland where whalers lived (think "harpoon").





.



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Edited by Abramelin, 09 October 2011 - 06:07 PM.


#6540    Knul

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 07:10 PM

Is it reasonable to leave the notification of Lumkamakja in Ast-Flyland ? I don't think so. Makja means make, in the OLB it refers to professions like shipmakja, silmakja. I haven't yet met makja in names of places. This makja should be something like -macia.