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Neanderthals' large eyes 'caused their demise


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#31    brainiac

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 02:20 PM

Ahh is that sooo.... Some asians especially the chinese may live longer than any other human species.


#32    Frank Merton

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 02:24 PM

The Chinese are the same species as the rest of us; Neanderthal was a different species.


#33    third_eye

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 06:12 PM

While I, on the other hand is a 'genus' in my own right ........

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' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
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#34    brainiac

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 06:18 PM

Nope it was now different. Lets go ask the scientists.


#35    Everdred

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 12:04 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 15 March 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Yes I am referring to the re-dating of the Iberian remains.  Since that is considered their last holdout in Europe, it means they were long gone.

The idea that Iberia was a holdout is outdated.  The Vindija cave site (Croatia) has Neanderthal remains dating c. 32-33kya, which is about the same age as the Iberian remains that were subjected to re-dating.  And the Vindija date is actually after re-dating by the same method use for the Iberian remains, so it's definitely secure.


#36    Lava_Lady

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 03:17 AM

If the neanderthals had big eyes, wouldn't they have been able to see the bunnys and have an advantage in hunting them?

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#37    psyche101

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:22 AM

I think like so many, Professor Dunbar has just managed to get a little carried away. This might have been a factor, but I do not see it being the "determining" factor. More of a list of things that resulted in Sapiens eventually gaining the upper hand. All of this does not make much sense to me, Neanderthal had clothes, sewing them up would not cause demise, it just means Neanderthal man would hold his wrap together, Neanderthal man had clothing, social structure, and I do feel art probably contradicts this claim a bit. In the end, it was probably a million things, and whilst big eyes might possibly have been one factor, to claim it is a deciding factor is indeed putting the cart before the horse.
And having better hunting skills I would have though something of an advantage?

Edited by psyche101, 18 March 2013 - 08:22 AM.

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#38    Frank Merton

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:02 AM

View PostEverdred, on 16 March 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:



The idea that Iberia was a holdout is outdated.  The Vindija cave site (Croatia) has Neanderthal remains dating c. 32-33kya, which is about the same age as the Iberian remains that were subjected to re-dating.  And the Vindija date is actually after re-dating by the same method use for the Iberian remains, so it's definitely secure.
You may be right, but I haven't seen anything like that so I would appreciate a refrence.

I have to say there seems to be a romanticism connected with the idea of Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal connections -- that maybe they interpred or maybe the Cro-Magnons contributed to the extinction.  As such there seems almost desperation to create stories of contact, when they may never have happened, or only at a distance.  At any rate the romantic notions associated with this view of history make me skeptical.


#39    third_eye

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 02:20 PM

the Neanderthals were just tired of living, last I heard

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#40    Frank Merton

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 02:38 PM

I understand they evolved a third eye.


#41    Junior Chubb

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 02:49 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 18 March 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

I understand they evolved a third eye.

And a third final front ear?  ;)

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#42    third_eye

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:57 PM

lets hope no one strays down the path of genitalia evolution

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#43    GreenmansGod

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:59 PM

I think it was a number of things climate change, competition, breeding, diseases and I don't think we will ever really figure out why unless we could time travel

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#44    Everdred

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:48 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 18 March 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

You may be right, but I haven't seen anything like that so I would appreciate a refrence.

I have to say there seems to be a romanticism connected with the idea of Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal connections -- that maybe they interpred or maybe the Cro-Magnons contributed to the extinction.  As such there seems almost desperation to create stories of contact, when they may never have happened, or only at a distance.  At any rate the romantic notions associated with this view of history make me skeptical.

Here's the paper for Vindija: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1334669/

The lead author here, Tom Higham, is a leading researcher in the use of the ultrafiltration technique at Oxford.  He is also, I gather, the advisor of the lead author of the Iberian paper (Rachel Wood) and helped her with the study.

He has also aided in other datings, such as at Spy cave in Belgium, yielding dates for some of the Neanderthal remains at 38-36kya: http://www.sciencedi...047248410001648

The other side of the debate of modern human/neanderthal interaction in Europe is the earliest presence of modern humans, for which the ultrafiltration technique has also been applied.  Higham et al. have applied it to a maxilla from Kent cave in England, which yielded a date of 44-41kya, the oldest yet for modern human remains in Europe:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22048314

Ultimately the paper on Iberian Neanderthal remains was merely meant to question the hypothesis that Iberia acted as a late refuge--instead we find that Neanderthals outside Iberia may have lasted just as long if not longer.  Unfortunately the popular media employs journalists who are essentially uneducated on science to write about scientific articles, and in this example it resulted in stupid headlines about Neanderthals in general being extinct earlier than thought, instead of noting that the study only applied to Iberia.

Edited by Everdred, 18 March 2013 - 08:49 PM.


#45    CRIPTIC CHAMELEON

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:58 PM

The scientists have got it all wrong the neanderthals used to do a mass gathering hunts and one year they decided to hunt lemmings.  :tu:





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