847 replies to this topic

[Sceptical believer]

questionmark, on 05 October 2009 - 09:14 PM, said:

There are two Welsh legends:



Both fall under the chapter "legend" as there is no evidence for either.

got to start somewhere,  and so far legends have led to more than one find that rewrote what we knew.  

Ubar, troy, pompei, Mohenjo-daro, the hanging gardens.. the scorpion king, the seven temples,... the list goes on.  
Okay Pompei was found by accident.. but there were legends of it. and the Seven temples, were only found after the tsunami but again there were legends.  so I added them.  

the point being, that I personally don't dismiss legends as being pure bs.   Often there is a grain of truth in the story. and as far as Im aware there are archeologist, who tend to agree.

plus currently Marine archeologists have been diving on sites off of England and Sweden.   Ive only seen a few stories about the English finds.

Edited by Sceptical believer, 05 October 2009 - 11:12 PM.

[jaylemurph]

Sceptical believer, on 05 October 2009 - 11:11 PM, said:

got to start somewhere,  and so far legends have led to more than one find that rewrote what we knew.  

Ubar, troy, pompei, Mohenjo-daro, the hanging gardens.. the scorpion king, the seven temples,... the list goes on.  
Okay Pompei was found by accident.. but there were legends of it.

If you consider first-hand reports by known Roman philosopher/historians "legends". I don't think most people would, though.

Ditto the Hanging Gardens. And kmt may correct me, but I'm not sure the Scorpion King is still anything but a legend. Mohenjo-Daro /was/ found by accident; the archaeologist was lead there by a Buddhist monk who thought it was a stupa. But that's hardly a find via mysterious legends. Nor am I certain anyone's actually /found/ an Ubar that matches up with the legends around it. Nor did any of those finds (including Schliemann's find of Troy) re-write anyone's understanding of history. It was almost exactly the opposite in each case.

To be fair, I'm not sure what the Seven Temples are, so they may well have been legendary, but otherwise it seems like your enthusiasm exceeds your grasp of facts.

Quote

Often there is a grain of truth in the story. and as far as Im aware there are archeologist, who tend to agree.

As the above shows, sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't. Since there's no a priori way to tell the difference, legends are not used by any serious students of history or archaeology as a basis for research.

--Jaylemurph

[Abramelin]

jaylemurph, on 06 October 2009 - 02:01 AM, said:

...but I'm not sure the Scorpion King is still anything but a legend

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Scorpion_I

[Sceptical believer]

North Sea Paleolandscape mapping.

its an interesting site, the project funded by the Aggregates Levy Sustainability Fund  and administered by English Heritage are in the process of mapping the paleo landscape of dogger land.  the links section has some really interesting links.

[Abramelin]

Sceptical believer, on 06 October 2009 - 03:49 AM, said:

North Sea Paleolandscape mapping.

its an interesting site, the project funded by the Aggregates Levy Sustainability Fund  and administered by English Heritage are in the process of mapping the paleo landscape of dogger land.  the links section has some really interesting links.

And here is a map they produced:

http://www.arch-ant....s/news/NEWS.htm


EDIT:

Your link didn't work, but this is the right one:

http://www.arch-ant....laeolandscapes/

...and I see my link is also on that site.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 October 2009 - 10:23 AM.

[The_Spartan]

I know that William Ryan's and Walter Pitman's Black Sea Deluge Hypothesis is flawed, but it sort of gives a direction in which to look for doggerland!

[Abramelin]

The Spartan, on 06 October 2009 - 10:54 AM, said:

I know that William Ryan's and Walter Pitman's Black Sea Deluge Hypothesis is flawed, but it sort of gives a direction in which to look for doggerland!

No, sorry, I don't get it...

I know the flooding of the Black Sea may have been much less catastrophic than prevously thought by Ryan and Pitman, and to quote something I posted here earlier, people didn't have to 'run for the hills'.

But the Storregga Slide which I have mentioned ad nauseum must have been a reallly catastrophic event for the people living on Doggerland.

You must not forget, Doggerland was flat as a pancake, with maybe only the present Doggers Bank sticking out from the suface as a low undulating hill. The tsunami that resulted from the Storregga Slide was huge, one of the largest ever, and must have whiped Doggerland clean.

[sweety32]

click here

[Abramelin]

So, you didn't get it either.



Must have been a real effort, as a 'first post', eh?



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Edited by Abramelin, 06 October 2009 - 12:23 PM.

[Abramelin]

About the history of the North Sea:

Quote

One of the earliest recorded names was Septentrionalis Oceanus, or "Northern Ocean" which was cited by Pliny.[68] However, the Celts who lived along its coast referred to it as the Morimaru, the "dead sea", which was also taken up by the Germanic peoples, giving Morimarusa.[69] This name refers to the "dead water" patches resulting from a layer of fresh water sitting on top of a layer of salt water making it quite still.[70] Names referring to the same phenomenon lasted into the Middle Ages, e.g., Old High German mere giliberōt and Middle Dutch lebermer or libersee. Other common names in use for long periods were the Latin terms Mare Frisicum,[71] Oceanum- or Mare Germanicum[72] as well as their English equivalents, "Frisian Sea",[73] "German Ocean",[74] "German Sea"[75] and "Germanic Sea" (from the Latin Mare Germanicum).[76][77]

http://www.answers.c...ea#cite_note-67

Here is an earlier source, still according to Pliny, but quoted by him:

Quote

[22] [Pliny's Natural History, 4.16 Actually Philemon is cited in Bk. 4. 13 of the Loeb Classic Library edition, and verse 95 of the Latin text (Philemon Morimasusam a Cimbris vocari, hoc est mortuum mare, inde usque ad promunturium Rusbeas, ultra deinde Cronium.) 'Philemon says that the Cimbrian name for it is Morimarusa (that is, Dead Sea) from the Parapanisus to Cape Rubeae, and from that point onward the Cronian Sea.' Pliny gives no title by Philemon.]

http://www.masseiana.org/ngbkn0.htm#22

The Cimbri's original home was Jutland, Denmark:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri

According to some, "Morimarusa" could also have meant "the frozen sea":
http://books.google......0sea"&f=false

Again, another source says it means the Baltic AND the North Sea:
http://www.davidkfau...mbri_LaTene.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas


But many living at present around the North Sea will know that it's nickname was 'Sea of Death' because of the many ships that went under during the frequent storms, so Morimasu could maybe also have meant "Sea of Death". But I don't speak Celtic, so I don't know if that is a possibility.

Now, if it IS a possibility, then maybe (a BIG maybe) that name, Morimaru (or Morimarusu) could also hint at a much more ancient history, like the death of the people that once lived on the land that's now under the sea, Doggerland. But in that case, the Cimbri (or their ancestors) must have lived in Jutland/Denmark/Scandinavia for a much longer time.



EDIT:

Now, this IS interesting:

Quote

History of human settlement in what is present day Norway goes back at least 11,000 years, to the late Paleolithic. Archaeological finds in the county of Møre og Romsdal have been dated to 9,200 BCE and are probably the remains of settlers from Doggerland, an area now submerged in the North Sea, but at the time a landbridge that connected the present day British Isles with Jutland. The Fosna-Hensbacka culture inhabited parts of Norway about 8,300 BCE to 7,300 BCE

http://www.freebase....story_of_norway

Edited by Abramelin, 06 October 2009 - 12:33 PM.

[Abramelin]

I found a socalled ineractive map of Europe from the time of the last ice age and onwards to the present:



Click the blue dots in succession, and see Doggerland disappear beath the waves.

Compared to what happend in the Mediterranean what happened with Doggerland was drastic.

This was caused by 3 events :
-1- the rise of the sea level by the meliting ice sheets ;
-2- the rise of the Scandinavian plate - because of the diminishing weight of the ice sheets -  and at the same time the sinking of the south of England and Holland (and North Germany as far as I know); the process is called Post-glacial rebound (sometimes called continental rebound, isostatic rebound, isostatic adjustment or post-ice-age isostatic recovery)
-3- and last but not least: the giant tsunami caused by the Storregga Slide.



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Edited by Abramelin, 06 October 2009 - 02:11 PM.

[Abramelin]

Sceptical believer, on 05 October 2009 - 05:48 PM, said:

this topic got brought up in the noah thread, and I felt like it deserved its own.  its an interesting topic and one that touches on research Ive been conducting for several years.

I have done my best.

Now it's your turn.

[Abramelin]

I guess it's all up to me.

Here's yet another site about the mapping of the North Sea floor:
http://www.methodsne...casestudy2.html


Figure 1. The extent of the 3D Seismic data currently employed in the project




Figure 2. A model of the Holocene Marine Seaway to the South of Dogger Bank




Figure 3. A Virtual Recreation of the area shown in Figure 2.(Image courtesy of Eugene Ch'ng)

[Sceptical believer]

Im hoping that sooner or later, TAS will decide to actually start investigating the Texas Gulf coast.  After every major storm or Hurricane. McFadden Beach is littered with points, scrapers, and other artifacts.   Ive done some diving off the beach, as far out as a hundred miles.  but havent really seen anything.  which is no surpise considering the closer you get to the shore visibility gets crappy eventually its about a foot or less.  and even where visibiliy is okay, and the depth is with in range, theres so much muck on the bottom  that its like looking for a needle in a haystack.

[Abramelin]

Hello, you said you had done research on Doggerland.

Well then, tell us about it here, please.

I mean, I posted till my fingers hurt because you wanted to start a thread about this topic.

Now shoot.