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And the Sun Stood Still


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#46    Mr. Miyagi

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:28 PM

We don't understand today but may understand how in the future? is that the gist? we may not understand either. either way it makes no sense to me right here and now. It may make sense to you because you are comfortable inserting your god into the situation and thats fine. im just personally not of that religious persuasion. As far as sin, let's  try again. I don't think I'm communicating my issue here effectively. It's not whether or not he sacrificed himself or even his reasons for doing so. I'm questioning the need to do so. If he had to sacrifice Jesus in order to compensate for our sins rather than just forgive then then he indeed is subject to the laws of sin. Sin would be something that even he must compensate for in someway with a physical sacrifice and thus, if sin is real, why would he not be subject to the rest of the laws of the universe? Do you see what I'm getting at? The fact that he needed a sacrifice at all rather than just simply forgiving sin would suggest that he is subject to the laws of the universe, if sin is believed to be real. I'm trying to communicate this more effectively.


#47    Ben Masada

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:30 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 14 March 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

You are talking God here, but not just any God -- you are talking Jehovah.  Of course he can make the sun stand still.  End of debate.

I do not deny that God can do any and all things but one: The thing you wish He did or should have done.


#48    Ben Masada

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:37 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 14 March 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

In what way does it circumvent that? If Jehovah can do anything it wishes, then why the sacrifice if himself/his don, etc... To pay for our sins? To whom would Jehovah be paying such a debt to? Why the need for a flood or to make the sun stop in the sky without dealing with the physical effects of such an occurrence? You're telling me that he must sacrifice, what? himself? A physical representation of himself? to deal with our sins in order to allow us into heaven but he isn't subject to the physical laws of the universe? The entire concept makes no sense. I guess that's why it's called faith.

I make mine all your questions above.

Edited by Ben Masada, 14 March 2013 - 08:41 PM.


#49    Mr. Miyagi

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:42 PM

And Ben, that I can understand. I think we understand each other here. My issue is with the need for a physical sacrifice of Jesus' life rather than just just forgive sin. Rather than repeat my issues on that and further muddy the waters I'll just refer to my last post on the issue. I think we both have issues with this although they may not be the same issues.


#50    WoIverine

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:43 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 02 March 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

AND THE SUN STOOD STILL

It is amazing to see how religious Scholars from almost all quarters of religious life struggle so hard to prove that a day is missing in the history of the universe which can be explained only by the "miracle" that the sun stood still so that the Israelites could win a decisive battle at the conquest of Ganaan, so they assert. Vanity of vanities! When will vanity fade? The answer is in the same chapter of Joshua for how and why the "sun stood still."

According to Moses Maimonides in his Book "Guide for the Perplexed" most references to the sun, moon and stars, falling or standing, moving or standing still, are references to the powers that be. When Joshua entered the Land of Canaan with a power unmatched by any other power in the world of then, five Canaanite kings got into a strong coalition composed by the city states of Jerusalem, Hebron, Jarmuth, Lachish and Eglon in order to be able to stop Joshua. That's when the epic myth that the sun stood still came about and here is how, according to Joshua 10:13-27.

As the Israelites were faring better in the battle and pursuing the enemies, the above coalition of kings got into the cave of Makkedah and stood still in the hope to keep the secret of their hiding place. Somehow, Joshua was told that they were hiding in that cave and he ordered that a stone wall be built at the entrance to the cave, set some soldiers to watch outside and ordered the Israelites to keep on fighting and pursuing the enemy armies while the kings stood still and until the battle was over. It was a long day so-to-speak as the powers that be stood still until Joshua had achieved complete victory. Then he ordered the cave to be open and the kings to be brought out and over to be punished with death.

That's when the sun stood still until the war was over. That's all. No mystery about a natural miracle. Just a strategy of Joshua to make sure the enemy kings (sun and moon) stook still until the war was over.


Ben

I posted this months ago!  Nobody even considered it. No one had any explanation for "a missing day during the historic record."  Glad to see you brought it back Ben. :tu:

Always thought references like this were interesting:

Discussion of the Missing Day in Earth's History(The Day the Sun Stood Still)

It is reported by historians that records of the Chinese during the reign of Emperor Yeo, who lived at the same time as Joshua, report "a long day." Also, Heroditus, a Greek historian, wrote that an account of "a long day" appears in records of Egyptian priests. Others cite records of Mexicans of the sun standing still for an entire day in a year denoted as "Seven Rabits," which is the same year in which Joshua defeated the Philistines and conquered Palestine. ("Bible-Science Newsletter," DAILY READING MAGAZINE - Supplement, Vol. VIII - No. 5, May 1978, Caldwell, Idaho.) Additionally, the historical lore of the Aztecs, Peruvians, and Babylonians speak of a "day of twice natural length."

In 1970, a story appeared in "The Evening World," a newpaper in Spencer, Indiana, about a consultant to the space program named Harold Hill (deceased) citing that he was told a computer program had found a "missing day." Though the computer program story could never be validated, interesting speculations and studies ensued about what astronomical mechanism might result in the "Earth standing still" for 24 hours.

One person suggested a large asteroid, perhaps 480 miles in diameter, may have struck Earth's mantle slowing Earth's rotation to a standstill by causing the hard mantle and molten core to separate for 24 hours as a bicycle's speed brake might slowly bring the wheels to a halt with the inter spokes continuing to rotate. After 24 hours, the friction between the stationary mantle and rotating core would accelerate the mantle to rotate once more.

The mechanism and collision would have to be somewhat viscous so that both the deceleration and acceleration was so gradual as to go unnoticed by Earth's inhabitants. The theory cites Professor Totten as writing that Newton described a way Earth's rotation could abruptly be slowed without its inhabitants noticing the slowing. A close encounter with the asteroid Hermes (500,000 miles) by Earth in 1937 is given as an example of the likelihood that such a collision might have occurred in Joshua's time.

The existance of a depressed (sink ) region of great size between Hawaii and the Philippines featuring long fracture lines at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean which extend outward to the continents is offered as the remains of the asteroid causing the loss of a day in the Earth's history. ("How To Live Like a King's Kid," Harold Hill with Irene Harrell, Bridge Publishing, Inc., South Plainfield, New Jersey, 1974, p. 74.)

Edited by WoIverine, 14 March 2013 - 08:46 PM.


#51    Ben Masada

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:46 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 14 March 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

It's not what you would need to cause the earth to stop spinning that intrigues me its the results of doing so and again, the idea that Jehovah apparently needs a sacrifice within our physical reality in order to compensate for sin but is not subject to the physical laws of that same reality. It makes no sense to me personally.

It makes no sense to me either as I am of the opinion that the Lord needs nothing from man or otherwise. The whole thing is to be found in the realm of religion. Hence faith is the word.

Ben


#52    Ben Masada

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:00 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 14 March 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

I would think that a god manipulating the laws of the universe would be a prime example of deified magic. secondly, If god is not subject to the laws of sin the why the need for a sacrifice of a physical representation of himself or his son or however you wish to refer to Jesus for us.To whom was this sacrifice made and in our physical universe for that matter? He had to compensate for sin in our physical universe but is not subject to the physical laws of our universe. I just don't understand it. I may never understand. If it makes sense to you then carry on my friend!

IMHO, there is no honest struggle in your mind to understand the nature of God as I can see that you insist on the literal things in the Bible which are supposed to be interpreted metaphorically. You must be an atheist dressing with the fur of a lamb trying to fish in a theistic pond. According to the thread, I have made it very clear that what happened was a metaphor of the sun standing still to point to the five kings locked up in the cave till the battle was over. Now, you are taking the issue down to the Christian doctrine of sacrificial atonement of God in the body of Jesus. Hey, if you want to discuss that, set it up on the open. As far as I am concerned, the issue of "The sun stood still" is solved. It was not a miracle but a military strategy.

Ben


#53    Ben Masada

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:07 PM

View PostJor-el, on 14 March 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

My dear Ben when it comes to hypotheses, yours are not significantly better than mine, are we now arguing how many angels fit on the head of a pin?

All we can do, (even you) is provide possibilites. None of us were there, none of can go back in time and none of us have evidence of the events one way or another, you say metaphor, I say, time dilation or simply a comet...

Right but what I have done is to elaborate on evidencial facts down on the text. You are hypothetizing as in "How about if..., and what about if...?" To hypothesize is to speculate without a positive aim at reality.

Ben


#54    Mr. Miyagi

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:07 PM

Ben, I'm not an atheist per se. I don't prefer labels when it comes to my worldview as labels quickly become a point of fixation and attachment but that's neither here nor there. I thought I was clear with your viewpoints on god and I take no issue with a metaphorical interpretation or even the possibility of a literal interpretation for that matter. I just have the issues which I have mentioned previously with a literal interpretation. We're on the same page Ben. I don't disagree with anything you've posted in this thread.


#55    Ben Masada

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:15 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 14 March 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

We don't understand today but may understand how in the future? is that the gist? we may not understand either. either way it makes no sense to me right here and now. It may make sense to you because you are comfortable inserting your god into the situation and thats fine. im just personally not of that religious persuasion. As far as sin, let's  try again. I don't think I'm communicating my issue here effectively. It's not whether or not he sacrificed himself or even his reasons for doing so. I'm questioning the need to do so. If he had to sacrifice Jesus in order to compensate for our sins rather than just forgive then then he indeed is subject to the laws of sin. Sin would be something that even he must compensate for in someway with a physical sacrifice and thus, if sin is real, why would he not be subject to the rest of the laws of the universe? Do you see what I'm getting at? The fact that he needed a sacrifice at all rather than just simply forgiving sin would suggest that he is subject to the laws of the universe, if sin is believed to be real. I'm trying to communicate this more effectively.

No one can die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30)  God has nothing to do with the sins of men. God has no need to forgive the sin of nobody. If we need forgiveness of our sins it is from whom we offended or committed our sins against. God does not need sacrifices. He needs nothing. We are the ones who need to repent of our evil ways and turn back into obedience of the Law. That's as simple as that.

Ben


#56    Ben Masada

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:21 PM

View PostMr. Miyagi, on 14 March 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

And Ben, that I can understand. I think we understand each other here. My issue is with the need for a physical sacrifice of Jesus' life rather than just just forgive sin. Rather than repeat my issues on that and further muddy the waters I'll just refer to my last post on the issue. I think we both have issues with this although they may not be the same issues.

There was no such a sacrifice. Jesus was condemned on political charges for having been acclaimed king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem. Hence his verdict of INRI nailed on the top of his cross. Besides, Jesus was a Jewish man and a learned one for that matter. He would not go against the Scriptures by subjecting himself to the Christian version of what happened to him.

Ben


#57    Sherapy

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:23 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 14 March 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

Right but what I have done is to elaborate on evidencial facts down on the text. You are hypothetizing as in "How about if..., and what about if...?" To hypothesize is to speculate without a positive aim at reality.

Ben

Ben, to be fair hypothesizing  is part and parcel of thinking logically, it is a way in which we address the unknowns in our reality. It is in this we can get to the reality. We do this by sifting through the 'how bout's' and 'what if's'. Eliminating, revising as we go.

Edited by Sherapy, 14 March 2013 - 10:05 PM.




#58    Mr. Miyagi

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:24 PM

Again Ben, your position makes sense to me. No, it's not my personal belief but It makes sense to me.


#59    Jor-el

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:58 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 14 March 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

Right but what I have done is to elaborate on evidencial facts down on the text. You are hypothetizing as in "How about if..., and what about if...?" To hypothesize is to speculate without a positive aim at reality.

Ben

I am sorry but I must disagree, there is no evidence that the hypothesis you put forward is implied or even understood in the text itself. It is as you initially put it, the interpretation of one man who lived centuries ago.

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#60    Sherapy

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:20 PM

View PostJor-el, on 14 March 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

I am sorry but I must disagree, there is no evidence that the hypothesis you put forward is implied or even understood in the text itself. It is as you initially put it, the interpretation of one man who lived centuries ago.

You know Jor el, I do agree (and I don't think either perspective works for me for  that matter to be honest.) I think both interpretations are just that personal takes on what the bible means.  In fact, I think that literal interpretation is more a reflection of the personal world view and influences of each of us more than any thing else.

Edited by Sherapy, 14 March 2013 - 10:20 PM.







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