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Bombs away in Israel & Gaza.. Again...


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#91    Black Red Devil

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:21 AM

View Postand then, on 18 November 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

It's been like this for all the years since Israel became a State again.  Both sides want all the land.  I support Israel for religious reasons but I also realize that their secular government causes many problems in the region.  In spite of this though, I really think that the Palestinians could EASILY box Israel in by agreeing to a peace plan that gives Israel security and themselves  a contiguous State.  But to do this all the current leadership from Hamas and probably most of the PA would be rendered impotent and they will never allow this.  On the other side we have the settlers who would scream bloody murder - but - the majority of Israelis are SICK OF WAR.  They would give a lot to have peace.  According to StratFor analysts this current skirmish is going to last until Israel can destroy the long range Fajr 5 missiles that were provided by Iran.  200 air strikes yesterday alone.

How about Israel and what they should be doing?  Do you think they should be booting the settlers back into their place?

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#92    and then

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:05 AM

View PostBlackRedLittleDevil, on 18 November 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

How about Israel and what they should be doing?  Do you think they should be booting the settlers back into their place?
To be honest, I don't understand the whole rationale behind the government allowing settlements on land that has not been purchased.  I think the people of Israel in general think of all of Judea and Samaria (West Bank) as their ancient homeland and as such feel justified in putting down roots there.  As a Christian Zionist I agree that the land is their's and that they will possess it but I still do not think that they can justify it in our modern secular world.  In fact, most Israelis are NOT religious.  So it gets down to what they will have to do to broker peace with the Palestinians.  The Likud depends on support from settlers so I doubt Netanyahu or any other Likud PM will totally desert them but if the country at large decides for peace then the settlers will be uprooted - it's happened before, you know?  And to Israel's shame, my understanding is that the government STILL has those citizens living in temporary housing.  With a record like that they will have trouble getting other settlers to move peacefully in the future.  But I still say that the settlements are only a smokescreen for the Palestinians.  The PLO was founded by Arafat in 1964, a full 3 years before the war that caused Gaza and the West Bank to be captured in a defensive war by the IDF.  So if those areas had already been under the control of Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (West Bank) then what was Arafat trying to "liberate"?  The answer is of course, ALL the land that Israel sits on.  They simply do not feel they should ever, under any circumstance have to coexist with a Jewish State in their midst.  That has been their stance these 65 years and so, the war grinds on.  It appears that a very large part of the nations of the world agree with them yet Israel remains.  In the early days that was due to France and the US.  But in 66 or 67 when they acquired a nuclear weapons capability the game changed forever.  Now they are not some vassal of any western power.  They ARE a power.  Whether one agrees with their existence or not, it seems to me to be folly to expect them to simply disappear or to allow themselves to be forced off of land they believe to be their's by right or conquest.  If, IMO, the US under a president like Obama were to side with the Arab cause in this conflict and cut off all aid and more importantly to vote against Israel in the UNSC then the world will be faced with having to do more than bluff.  They would have to take action.  And in truth, what can they really do?  Israel could be strangled economically but they couldn't be starved.  So there is no easy solution but the bottom line is that Israel WILL COMPROMISE if the conditions aren't too extreme while the Palestinians have consistently held the line on their demands.  They see the PR war going in their favor and have deluded themselves into believing that they can actually have ALL THE LAND.  It's madness.

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#93    Yes_Man

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:39 AM

Let's say if Hamas has anti aircraft guns and took one drones and planes etc. That could change the outcome slightly and then Israel will have to send ground troops on thier own.


#94    and then

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 01:11 PM

View PostThe New Richard Nixon, on 18 November 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Let's say if Hamas has anti aircraft guns and took one drones and planes etc. That could change the outcome slightly and then Israel will have to send ground troops on thier own.
I have heard that some of the manpads from Libya are in Gaza.  The IAF is probably being more cautious with countermeasures than they were in the past.  Losing a pilot or worse - having one captured - would be a real setback for them.

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#95    freetoroam

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 02:08 PM

View Postshaddow134, on 18 November 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

Isreal may have the right to defend herself, but  i suppose if a country was illegally blockading my land by Land and Sea then i suppose i might feel the urge to fight back.

Until you remove the military influence from both sides,there will never be any solution to this constant cycle of Madness.That goes for Bibi the Crybaby as well.
You need to remove more than just the military influence, with both sides you need to remove religion, all their accessibility to ammunition.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#96    Drayno

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:40 PM

I have a feeling this will turn into a uber-Religious war. The result of this conflict, if it is spread, could possibly be the targeting and persecution of Muslims..Obviously some Muslim extremists want to kill the Jews because the construction of Israel in 1947 interfered with their lives and peace.. But the escalation of this conflict is mostly because of Israel. It seems that war is the goal of Israel.. And Israel will have war.

If Israel invaded in 2008 with 10,000 ground forces and caused close to 2k deaths, imagine what 75,000 ground forces could do to Palestine. Not only in the deaths of innocent civilians - but the basic infrastructure of the country. Schools destroyed, agriculture dismantled and uprooted, hospitals bombed and turned into rubble.. Eventually America will get dragged into this god awful bloody mess. American media of course is depicting Iran in a horrible light - but between the Machiavellian policies of both America and Iran, and the propagandized depiction of Iran in the American media, it is very difficult to discern any truth.

"Let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings."
- William Shakespeare, Richard II, Act III, Scene II

#97    Yes_Man

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:49 PM

View PostDrayno, on 18 November 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

I have a feeling this will turn into a uber-Religious war. The result of this conflict, if it is spread, could possibly be the targeting and persecution of Muslims..Obviously some Muslim extremists want to kill the Jews because the construction of Israel in 1947 interfered with their lives and peace.. But the escalation of this conflict is mostly because of Israel. It seems that war is the goal of Israel.. And Israel will have war.

If Israel invaded in 2008 with 10,000 ground forces and caused close to 2k deaths, imagine what 75,000 ground forces could do to Palestine. Not only in the deaths of innocent civilians - but the basic infrastructure of the country. Schools destroyed, agriculture dismantled and uprooted, hospitals bombed and turned into rubble.. Eventually America will get dragged into this god awful bloody mess. American media of course is depicting Iran in a horrible light - but between the Machiavellian policies of both America and Iran, and the propagandized depiction of Iran in the American media, it is very difficult to discern any truth.
its always been. This is what this about, keep up lol


#98    TaraOlivia

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:23 PM

Everybody always denies or doesn't want to believe the fact that armageddon is always a possibility.... It's understandable I mean it's scary to think about. It's scary for me to think about especially with having kids.... but I know we cannot live in fear.... but everything that Jesus talked about in the bible IS HAPPENING!!!!


#99    freetoroam

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:29 PM

View PostTaraOlivia, on 18 November 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

Everybody always denies or doesn't want to believe the fact that armageddon is always a possibility.... It's understandable I mean it's scary to think about. It's scary for me to think about especially with having kids.... but I know we cannot live in fear.... but everything that Jesus talked about in the bible IS HAPPENING!!!!
I would be a lot happier if I knew my world would not end because of the religion lot. I am not religious, so why should my world end down to someones religion? and they are trying to convince us religion is about peace???

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#100    Professor T

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:09 AM

View PostTaraOlivia, on 18 November 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

Everybody always denies or doesn't want to believe the fact that armageddon is always a possibility.... It's understandable I mean it's scary to think about. It's scary for me to think about especially with having kids.... but I know we cannot live in fear.... but everything that Jesus talked about in the bible IS HAPPENING!!!!

And it's being allowed to happen because the rest of the world is stuck in the "let's support Israel or let's support Hamas mode" istead of condmening what is going on, the world is picking sides and "booing" anyone who's not in their team as though it's a football game.. "Friends of Hamas/Palestine should be condemning them for the rain of rockets.. and likewise, friends of Israel should be condemning them for their attacks."  But the world is stuck in the picking sides of the conflict approach, which will only cause this conflict to escilate.. how long before the fighting on the pitch end's up in the stands I wonder..

A glimmer of hope perhaps..
The German Foreign Minister is expected in Israel on Monday to try and broker at cease fire & UK's PM has told Israel not to invade the strip.


#101    MichaelW

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:19 AM

View PostBlackRedLittleDevil, on 18 November 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

How about Israel and what they should be doing?  Do you think they should be booting the settlers back into their place?

If Bibi was smart enough, yes. Considering 60% of the Israeli public support the dismantling of West Bank settlements, that alone should be enough for Bibi to try something like a repeat of 2006.

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#102    shaddow134

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 02:34 AM

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#103    WHO U KIDDIN

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 02:50 AM

View Postand then, on 18 November 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

To be honest, I don't understand the whole rationale behind the government allowing settlements on land that has not been purchased.  I think the people of Israel in general think of all of Judea and Samaria (West Bank) as their ancient homeland and as such feel justified in putting down roots there.  As a Christian Zionist I agree that the land is their's and that they will possess it but I still do not think that they can justify it in our modern secular world.  In fact, most Israelis are NOT religious.  So it gets down to what they will have to do to broker peace with the Palestinians.  The Likud depends on support from settlers so I doubt Netanyahu or any other Likud PM will totally desert them but if the country at large decides for peace then the settlers will be uprooted - it's happened before, you know?  And to Israel's shame, my understanding is that the government STILL has those citizens living in temporary housing.  With a record like that they will have trouble getting other settlers to move peacefully in the future.  But I still say that the settlements are only a smokescreen for the Palestinians.  The PLO was founded by Arafat in 1964, a full 3 years before the war that caused Gaza and the West Bank to be captured in a defensive war by the IDF.  So if those areas had already been under the control of Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (West Bank) then what was Arafat trying to "liberate"?  The answer is of course, ALL the land that Israel sits on.  They simply do not feel they should ever, under any circumstance have to coexist with a Jewish State in their midst.  That has been their stance these 65 years and so, the war grinds on.  It appears that a very large part of the nations of the world agree with them yet Israel remains.  In the early days that was due to France and the US.  But in 66 or 67 when they acquired a nuclear weapons capability the game changed forever.  Now they are not some vassal of any western power.  They ARE a power.  Whether one agrees with their existence or not, it seems to me to be folly to expect them to simply disappear or to allow themselves to be forced off of land they believe to be their's by right or conquest.  If, IMO, the US under a president like Obama were to side with the Arab cause in this conflict and cut off all aid and more importantly to vote against Israel in the UNSC then the world will be faced with having to do more than bluff.  They would have to take action.  And in truth, what can they really do?  Israel could be strangled economically but they couldn't be starved.  So there is no easy solution but the bottom line is that Israel WILL COMPROMISE if the conditions aren't too extreme while the Palestinians have consistently held the line on their demands.  They see the PR war going in their favor and have deluded themselves into believing that they can actually have ALL THE LAND.  It's madness.

Historically Israel has never entertained the thought of compromise, it's negotiations with the Palestinians has always being a tactical ploy, in their long-range quest to achieve a Greater Israel. Israeli policy has been to stall and negate any movement toward Palestinian statehood and self determination. Even after Oslo was signed in 1995 Israel continued its territorial acquisitions in the West Bank and its settlement expansionist program, which eventually led Arafat to call for the Second Intifada in Sept. 2000. Israel responded by erecting apartheid walls of segregation to protect their settlements and to imprison the Palestinian people. As a result the Palestinians live in ghettos that even Hitler would be proud of.

As humans we must ask ourselves how can we continue to support this so-called democratic regime that practices outright racial segregation and hatred towards all that is 'Non-Jewish'?


http://www.google.co...EcKJvfh_SSNVbtQ




#104    and then

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:29 AM

View PostWHO U KIDDIN, on 19 November 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

Historically Israel has never entertained the thought of compromise, it's negotiations with the Palestinians has always being a tactical ploy, in their long-range quest to achieve a Greater Israel. Israeli policy has been to stall and negate any movement toward Palestinian statehood and self determination. Even after Oslo was signed in 1995 Israel continued its territorial acquisitions in the West Bank and its settlement expansionist program, which eventually led Arafat to call for the Second Intifada in Sept. 2000. Israel responded by erecting apartheid walls of segregation to protect their settlements and to imprison the Palestinian people. As a result the Palestinians live in ghettos that even Hitler would be proud of.

As humans we must ask ourselves how can we continue to support this so-called democratic regime that practices outright racial segregation and hatred towards all that is 'Non-Jewish'?


http://www.google.co...EcKJvfh_SSNVbtQ


If you are correct then they as a nation will also continue to suffer endlessly.  Our support of them is over rated I think.  I still find it almost amusing, almost, that a group of only 5 or 6 million people can be so universally despised and or feared.  It just doesn't seem rational to me.  I guess it will all work out just as it is supposed to.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#105    Black Red Devil

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:36 AM

View Postand then, on 18 November 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

To be honest, I don't understand the whole rationale behind the government allowing settlements on land that has not been purchased.  I think the people of Israel in general think of all of Judea and Samaria (West Bank) as their ancient homeland and as such feel justified in putting down roots there.  As a Christian Zionist I agree that the land is their's and that they will possess it but I still do not think that they can justify it in our modern secular world.  In fact, most Israelis are NOT religious.  So it gets down to what they will have to do to broker peace with the Palestinians.  The Likud depends on support from settlers so I doubt Netanyahu or any other Likud PM will totally desert them but if the country at large decides for peace then the settlers will be uprooted - it's happened before, you know?  And to Israel's shame, my understanding is that the government STILL has those citizens living in temporary housing.  With a record like that they will have trouble getting other settlers to move peacefully in the future.  But I still say that the settlements are only a smokescreen for the Palestinians.  The PLO was founded by Arafat in 1964, a full 3 years before the war that caused Gaza and the West Bank to be captured in a defensive war by the IDF.  So if those areas had already been under the control of Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (West Bank) then what was Arafat trying to "liberate"?  The answer is of course, ALL the land that Israel sits on.  They simply do not feel they should ever, under any circumstance have to coexist with a Jewish State in their midst.  That has been their stance these 65 years and so, the war grinds on.  It appears that a very large part of the nations of the world agree with them yet Israel remains.  In the early days that was due to France and the US.  But in 66 or 67 when they acquired a nuclear weapons capability the game changed forever.  Now they are not some vassal of any western power.  They ARE a power.  Whether one agrees with their existence or not, it seems to me to be folly to expect them to simply disappear or to allow themselves to be forced off of land they believe to be their's by right or conquest.  If, IMO, the US under a president like Obama were to side with the Arab cause in this conflict and cut off all aid and more importantly to vote against Israel in the UNSC then the world will be faced with having to do more than bluff.  They would have to take action.  And in truth, what can they really do?  Israel could be strangled economically but they couldn't be starved.  So there is no easy solution but the bottom line is that Israel WILL COMPROMISE if the conditions aren't too extreme while the Palestinians have consistently held the line on their demands.  They see the PR war going in their favor and have deluded themselves into believing that they can actually have ALL THE LAND.  It's madness.

In the end, I disagree with most of what you wrote but ....whatever.  This is my spin on things, but then again I could be wrong.  1) I don't think the people of Israel believe the West Bank is theirs, only the Zionists, right wing nationalists and of course....the settlers (who are probably a combination of both Zionists and Nats, who in turn are probably the same thing).  2) The settlers aren't a smokescreen for the Palestinians, they're a breach in the peace agreements that happened when the PA was supposed to recognise Israel (and they did) and Israel was supposed to dismantle all settlements (which they NEVER did).  3) Totally wrong when you say the majority of nations in the world want the end of Israel and want the Palestinians to own ALL the land.  If that was the case nobody would have ever recognised Israel.  What the majority of the world want is a proper solution and fair treatment so this ongoing saga ends once and for all.  Also, the fact that Israel has nukes doesn't have anything to do with their recognition as a State or the reason the world lays off them. It's because the US protects them and veto's all resolutions.  Actually, Israel doesn't even have any nukes, so they profess. 4) The US will never side with the arabs against Israel.  EVER. Too many integrated Jewish interests in the US for that to happen.  5) Israel will never compromise with the Palestinians unless they change Govt.  The nationalist right wing parties have no interest to share anything with Palestinians.  Israel strangled economically?  I don't think so.

We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell

- Oscar Wilde




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