145 replies to this topic

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

uprize, on 19 November 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

I find it funny that people keep claiming 'the universe couldn't have started from nothing' but then go to talk about God and Religion but yet they are in the same situation - who created God???

Religion is based on thousands of years of lack of knowledge of the world and the universe, most of which we already understand or are working on understanding.
We are at a time where we realize that there are BILLIONS of galaxies in the universe, each with BILLIONS of suns, most of which will have several planets orbiting them.
To think that Earth is something special created by God is a joke. But then the religious folk answer by saying that God created all of those galaxies and planets too, he created everything..

Why not just get rid of the God theory and believe in the universe instead? The paths lead down the same road (nobody knows how either one were created) but at least we are gaining knowledge of the universe.
We will never gain knowledge of God.

That's looking at it in exactly the same way that non-Goddish people criticise Goddish people for doing; seeing God as a seperate entity, like a mega-father figure, who decides to do things on a whim. This was the way that people thought of God in the old days as, as outlined above, they naturally tried to put things in terms that they understood.
Who nowadays tries to argue* that Earth is something special created by God? Why do you see the argument by "religious folk" that God created all of those galaxies and planets too, he created everything, as a cop out? Why is that based on lack of knowledge of the world and the universe? Is it not a response out of awe at the Universe itself? Could not God and the Universe been seen as synynoymous, but not that that makes God redundant because God might be the intelligent force that makes it all happen and was responsible for designing the laws in the first place, laws which many argue do give every impression of being designed with incredible precision?
* well, ok, i suppose some bible belt literalists might do, but they're hardly typical

[uprize]

747400, on 19 November 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

That's looking at it in exactly the same way that non-Goddish people criticise Goddish people for doing; seeing God as a seperate entity, like a mega-father figure, who decides to do things on a whim. This was the way that people thought of God in the old days as, as outlined above, they naturally tried to put things in terms that they understood.
Who nowadays tries to argue* that Earth is something special created by God? Why do you see the argument by "religious folk" that God created all of those galaxies and planets too, he created everything, as a cop out? Why is that based on lack of knowledge of the world and the universe? Is it not a response out of awe at the Universe itself? Could not God and the Universe been seen as synynoymous, but not that that makes God redundant because God might be the intelligent force that makes it all happen and was responsible for designing the laws in the first place, laws which many argue do give every impression of being designed with incredible precision?
* well, ok, i suppose some bible belt literalists might do, but they're hardly typical

God was a convenient way to explain some of the fantastic ways of our universe thousands of years ago.
People didnt know what floods were, or cyclones, fires, etc.
They didnt know what stars were. Or the Moon. Or the Sun.

It kind of makes sense to create the illusion of God back when you didn't know about our solar system or the universe as a whole.
It does not make sense to continue with the God belief after all the knowledge that we have made so far.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

uprize, on 19 November 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

God was a convenient way to explain some of the fantastic ways of our universe thousands of years ago.
People didnt know what floods were, or cyclones, fires, etc.
They didnt know what stars were. Or the Moon. Or the Sun.

It kind of makes sense to create the illusion of God back when you didn't know about our solar system or the universe as a whole.
It does not make sense to continue with the God belief after all the knowledge that we have made so far.

Why doesn't it? You assume that knowledge of the universe makes God redundant? I'd say it makes the idea make even more sense, since the idea propagated by people like friend Dawkins that it all came into being, and developed, and continues working, entirely by an incredible series of amazing coincidences or purely mechanical processes or pure natural selection seems to rely on such an incredible string of coincidences and strokes of luck that it barely seems plausible.

[uprize]

747400, on 19 November 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

Why doesn't it? You assume that knowledge of the universe makes God redundant? I'd say it makes the idea make even more sense, since the idea propagated by people like friend Dawkins that it all came into being, and developed, and continues working, entirely by an incredible series of amazing coincidences or purely mechanical processes or pure natural selection seems to rely on such an incredible string of coincidences and strokes of luck that it barely seems plausible.

Yes I do.

Doesn't seem plausible to who? You? It seems much more plausible to mostly anyone with any scientific knowledge.
Why are there <10% religious people in the physics scientific community? Because they are the ones who understand the universe the most, and they realize WHY things happen as they do, and it has nothing to do with religion.

Why is the Earth so special? Why did 'God' create us out of nothing in 7 days and let us populate this planet, when there are TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS of other planets out in the universe?
I suppose he created all of them too. I bet they all have apple trees too!

[freetoroam]

uprize, on 19 November 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

God was a convenient way to explain some of the fantastic ways of our universe thousands of years ago.
People didnt know what floods were, or cyclones, fires, etc.
They didnt know what stars were. Or the Moon. Or the Sun.

It kind of makes sense to create the illusion of God back when you didn't know about our solar system or the universe as a whole.
It does not make sense to continue with the God belief after all the knowledge that we have made so far.

Absolute agree.
Funny how those with the evidence do not need to argue the case, but those with a belief still try to.

[and then]

freetoroam, on 19 November 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

Absolute agree.
Funny how those with the evidence do not need to argue the case, but those with a belief still try to.

Very large generalization there, friend.  I am a firm believer in the God of the Bible and His Son Jesus Christ but I don't hound  people with it or tell them they are damned if they don't believe as I do.  Because I believe, I am confident that the Creator will make Himself known to everyone eventually and at that point all doubt will be gone.  Until then I am content with my faith and with allowing others to believe whatever they choose to.

[Pupp3t]

We've never been to those planets you mentioned, so there is a chance that life is out there.
And maybe with some apple trees.

[freetoroam]

and then, on 19 November 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

Very large generalization there, friend.  I am a firm believer in the God of the Bible and His Son Jesus Christ but I don't hound  people with it or tell them they are damned if they don't believe as I do.  Because I believe, I am confident that the Creator will make Himself known to everyone eventually and at that point all doubt will be gone.  Until then I am content with my faith and with allowing others to believe whatever they choose to.

Completely respect your point. I have no qualms with people believing what ever they like, its those who try and ram it into others faces of insist that it is the be all and end all when to date, we still do not have proof.
Some of my forefathers were Catholics and before that Celts, I have chosen to follow the latter, does not mean I disrespect the others, but i did ask them the question WHY, and as yet, it is not based on facts, but thats their choice and I will never try and sway them.
I will always respect the fact that some in my family and I, will always beg to differ on certain things, that`s life, but in my life, its not life threatening, unfortunately, in some religions, it is.

Edited by freetoroam, 19 November 2012 - 01:41 PM.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

uprize, on 19 November 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

Yes I do.

Doesn't seem plausible to who? You? It seems much more plausible to mostly anyone with any scientific knowledge.
Why are there <10% religious people in the physics scientific community? Because they are the ones who understand the universe the most, and they realize WHY things happen as they do, and it has nothing to do with religion.

Why is the Earth so special? Why did 'God' create us out of nothing in 7 days and let us populate this planet, when there are TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS of other planets out in the universe?
I suppose he created all of them too. I bet they all have apple trees too!

Why do people always take the literalist view in order to treat the whole idea with disdain? One does not have to be an Atheist to not literally believe that  'God' create us out of nothing in 7 days, you know. Why is the Earth, you ask rhetorically, so special? Do you know the arguments (often put forward by people who wish to emphasises how improbable the likelihood is of life developing on any planet, however conducive the conditions), of just how exactly right all the conditions had to be for life to develop on the planet Earth? How if there'd been one or two degrees difference in temperature, or if it had been alittle nearer or a little further away from the Sun, or if the atmosphere had been just fractionally different, and so on? I think an argument could be made for for life to develop at all, let alone (theoretically) Intelligent life, thatd oes actually make the planet on which it occurs fairly special. Of course it's almost certainly occurred on, probably many other planets throughout the universe; but the same considerations would apply on each. I think the idea that God is the God just of this planet is a very outdated one that people need to get rid of. Of course God would manifest in ways particular to the people of this planet, in ways that they could comprehend; that's what the whole argument of "mankind of God's image (or vice versa)" has been all about. You really need to think of God on a cosmic scale.

[freetoroam]

What is it with this sudden surge on the word "atheist', why are some mentioning it to a point that they make it out to be another religion but against theirs??
I do not believe in god, i do not call myself an atheist either. The word has more than one meaning, and one of those meaning is "you do not believe in ones god", ie: jesus would have been seen as an atheist by the Romans, because he did not believe in their god.
I am not another follower of a word created by man to describe an alternative to religion.
I am not an atheist, and i am not a believer in god.
There you go, what are the believers going to call me now?

[Seeker79]

Origins of spiritual beliefs do not come from not understanding things. Those are the origins of mythologies. Two separate things. This is a widely held misnomer. I would be rich if I had a dollar for every time some misinformed poster parroted this

[freetoroam]

Seeker79, on 19 November 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Origins of spiritual beliefs do not come from not understanding things. Those are the origins of mythologies. Two separate things. This is a widely held misnomer. I would be rich if I had a dollar for every time some misinformed poster parroted this

Not really, many mythological stories contain gods. it still boils down to not understanding, the Greek and Roman myths were based on their belief in the gods, explanations have been found for many of the lovely stories, its just the god bit some people can not get out of their head today.
Myths are stories carried throughout the generations, some based on gods, some are ghost stories, they all vary, so to say they are 2 separate things is a very narrow way of looking at them.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Ra, who was already Ra-Horakhty-Aton at the beginning, emerged from the waters of Chaos. What sits behind this event, and the waters of Chaos themselves, is the Great Mystery. All that occured before the emergence of Ra is conjecture and speculation, on the part of scientists and theists alike. The question is valid, but it is too big. I said on another thread somewhere, that when we can answer this question, then it is likely we have, to all intents and purposes, become God.

[freetoroam]

Can you imagine  the time when the sun rose over the horizon, it did not just bring light, it brought life and death. its powers were beyond any man could achieve, at that time without the technology we have today, the only way to even try and understand it was to see it as a god. Logical? absolutely! The Sun disk was a force to be reckoned with, so surely must be a god.
Today we know better, but although we know it is not a god, it is still a force to be reckoned with. Without the curiosity of the past, we would not know what we know now, and still we know little.

[Lion6969]

Nothing created god, god is eternal infinite therefore absolute. God is uncreated, to ask such a question usually means one does not understand what a god is nor comprehension of the infinite.