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Christopagan thread


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#31    Simbi Laveau

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:14 PM

View PostxFelix, on 07 May 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:



I'm sorry but you are wrong about Santeria being Christopagan. The Rules of Lucumi is a pagan faith that only syncretizes for the sake of outsiders getting a general idea of what the different beings are. Even then, the syncretizing is almost always exclusive to just comparing Lucumi saints to Catholic saints.

For example, my guardian angel is Ochosi. The angel of divine justice, hunting, animals, the forest, and witchcraft. His closest catholic counterparts are Saint Norbert & Saint John The Baptist. There are plenty of similarities between the two, but as you read further you begin to understand that they are not the same being and it was just a mild comparison in hopes that people will open their minds about who the Lucumi Saints really are and stop calling them demons. The comparisons started when the African slaves were basically being told you are christian or you are dead. When they were forced in such a manner they even went as far as including a crucifix into their practice(among other things), and some people today still use the crucifix out of ignorance. Once again I will repeat: The Rules of Lucumi(Santeria) and Palo Monte(Paleria) have absolutely nothing to do with christianity, in fact it is the complete opposite... Why would they truly hold any faith to a religion that threatened death upon them?

I was going to say this. You beat me to it ,but,I have found ,some people DO combine the two . I live in nyc ,and despite their Santeria practices,these people go to church .Christian church .
Marie Laveau of voodoo fame was the same .
She was a quadroon ,born a free woman of color ,so she never hid her faith .
She practiced voodoo by night,and went to church ,every single day.

So many stories about her are exaggerated ,but I'm sure this one is not .

That being said ,witches,in the celtic druidic pagan sense ,are very different in practice ,from afrocarribean "witches".

People who claim to be a christian witch,or a jewish witch ,as I've come across those too ,are merely people who need something in their lives,to feel as if they have control over their lives
praying to their moms god,doesnt fulfill their wishes,so lighting a candle to hecate ,or isis ,all decorated by the local witch ,at 25$ a pop ,somehow will fix their love life,or money problems .
And sometimes,I'm sure it works,but these people aren't true pagans,by any means

Edited by Simbi Laveau, 10 May 2013 - 12:21 PM.

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#32    xFelix

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:35 PM

View PostSimbi Laveau, on 10 May 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

I was going to say this. You beat me to it ,but,I have found ,some people DO combine the two . I live in nyc ,and despite their Santeria practices,these people go to church .Christian church .
Marie Laveau of voodoo fame was the same .
She was a quadroon ,born a free woman of color ,so she never hid her faith .
She practiced voodoo by night,and went to church ,every single day.

So many stories about her are exaggerated ,but I'm sure this one is not .

That being said ,witches,in the celtic druidic pagan sense ,are very different in practice ,from afrocarribean "witches".

People who claim to be a christian witch,or a jewish witch ,as I've come across those too ,are merely people who need something in their lives,to feel as if they have control over their lives
praying to their moms god,doesnt fulfill their wishes,so lighting a candle to hecate ,or isis ,all decorated by the local witch ,at 25$ a pop ,somehow will fix their love life,or money problems .
And sometimes,I'm sure it works,but these people aren't true pagans,by any means

I love those kinds of "pagans" they go to a store, buy a candle maybe a little bath.. light their candle take that bath and bam they're ready for a TV interview about how badass they are and how they can fix all your problems lol

In most cases they could quite frankly give a crap less about nature, or the balance of it...

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#33    Simbi Laveau

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:15 PM

View PostxFelix, on 10 May 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:



I love those kinds of "pagans" they go to a store, buy a candle maybe a little bath.. light their candle take that bath and bam they're ready for a TV interview about how badass they are and how they can fix all your problems lol

In most cases they could quite frankly give a crap less about nature, or the balance of it...
Where the hell have you been hiding the entire time I've been on this forum !?!? !!!!
Hallelujah !

During your training ,did you have to read all the books of Allan Kardec ?
That was my first assigned task .


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#34    xFelix

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:22 PM

View PostSimbi Laveau, on 10 May 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Where the hell have you been hiding the entire time I've been on this forum !?!? !!!!
Hallelujah !

During your training ,did you have to read all the books of Allan Kardec ?
That was my first assigned task .

Lol no.

I just sat in Misa after Misa... after 8 years they did my Spiritual crowning. In all fairness though, I think if I would have read the book it wouldn't have taken me 8 freaking years but oh well :P

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#35    Jesus Loves Us

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:24 PM

View PostxFelix, on 10 May 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

but don't deceive others.

It's ok to use catholic saints to deceive catholics. :yes:


#36    GreenmansGod

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:26 PM

View PostxFelix, on 10 May 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

I love those kinds of "pagans" they go to a store, buy a candle maybe a little bath.. light their candle take that bath and bam they're ready for a TV interview about how badass they are and how they can fix all your problems lol

In most cases they could quite frankly give a crap less about nature, or the balance of it...

I have to agree, there is much more to the craft than candles and such.  Magic is really a small part of it. It is a life style in unison with the natural world or as least as best you can. A lot of people come in looking for Potter magic. They end up moving on when they find it is not what they thought it is, which is fine with me.  You want magic go to a Pentecost church.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." Salman Rushdie

#37    Jessica Christ

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:28 PM

View PostxFelix, on 10 May 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Just noticed what you wrote about the neutral faith concept. Yeah I truly love that about Santeria and Palo Mayombe, we accept all even homosexuals.

We do however have little tolerance for what we call "mariconeria" or "faggotism".. I'll explain before anyone kills me for the comment lol

Ok so we all have pro's and con's, and we are who we are.. Take it or leave it. So we accept homosexuality because in our eyes... that is just like any other con.. just the same as drug addiction, or gambling.. now what do I mean by "faggotism"? Being a gay man doesn't mean you have to dress like a woman and behave like one, that is deceitful and not tolerated. If you're a man and you're gay, that's fine.. but don't deceive others. Same applies for lesbians, you can like other women all you want.. But don't come at us trying to look like a man, with your mullet and jeans.. scratching your imaginary nuts and expect it to be tolerated...

When you stand in front of the Saints, they know who you are and what you are, and they love for you for YOU. That being said, they expect women to be women and men to be men regardless of sexual preference.

There has been many cases where homosexuals have not listened to their elders and have decided to stand in front of a saint and have been told that they need to go and take off their disguises and never put them back on because their disrespect will not be tolerated.

What is expected of a person? Be yourself; gay men are still men, gay women are still women. Being overly gay is unnecessary and deceitful.

Yes, not agreeing with it, but one santero here said if you are a lesbian then he could not fully train you all the way because the orixas do not accept that.

I feel that they could be more accepting...but not here to argue that.

View PostSimbi Laveau, on 10 May 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

I was going to say this. You beat me to it ,but,I have found ,some people DO combine the two . I live in nyc ,and despite their Santeria practices,these people go to church .Christian church .
Marie Laveau of voodoo fame was the same .
She was a quadroon ,born a free woman of color ,so she never hid her faith .
She practiced voodoo by night,and went to church ,every single day.

So many stories about her are exaggerated ,but I'm sure this one is not .

That being said ,witches,in the celtic druidic pagan sense ,are very different in practice ,from afrocarribean "witches".

People who claim to be a christian witch,or a jewish witch ,as I've come across those too ,are merely people who need something in their lives,to feel as if they have control over their lives
praying to their moms god,doesnt fulfill their wishes,so lighting a candle to hecate ,or isis ,all decorated by the local witch ,at 25$ a pop ,somehow will fix their love life,or money problems .
And sometimes,I'm sure it works,but these people aren't true pagans,by any means

Well Afro-Caribbean pagans are different from Northern European pagans who are different than Southern European pagans who are different from Latin-American pagans.

They are not all centered on a Wiccan-type view of nature. To not call them all pagans is silly.

In Northern Europe one bad storm could ruin a whole crop and all would suffer so they were quite hostile to any hint of the old religions.

In Southern Europe they did not have bad weather frequently, Mediterranean climate and all, so witchery was not suppressed to the same extent. In fact nobles, and good Catholics of all stripes, would patronize the witches for love spells, fortune telling, etc...

There is also from Spain the practice of hechicero. A guidebook to it is the The Great Book of Saint Cyprian also know as Tesoro del Hechicero.

Taking a look at the cover or reading from inside you will quickly see it is unlike Northern Europe paganism.

Quote

The book was taken from Portugal to Brazil and became widely used in popular religion, especially umbanda and candomblé. Several editions of the work appear as "Great and True", "The Only Complete One", "Authentic", "In a Black Cape", "In a Steel Cape"; all explain that Saint Cyprian, the sorcerer of Antioch, is not the same as the famous bishop of Carthage.

All contain instructions to priests on how to cure disease; evil spells and exorcisms; a list of 174 treasures of Galicia; the Prayer of the Guardian Angel; 50 mysteries of witchcraft from the time of the Moors (including medicine); treasure of magic (for example, way to capture a little devil making a pact with Satan; black magic to destroy a marriage; a skull lit up with candles of grease to do evil to a person); an explanation of hidden powers of hatred and love; the hidden powers of magnetism; prayers of popular religiosity (Magnificat, Cross of Saint Benedict, Dream of Our Lady, Dearly beloved Jesus Christ, a prayer to aid the sick in the hour of death) and the prayer of the Black Goat; and so on.

The Great Book of Saint Cyprian

Here are two translated spells from within:

Quote

The Cross of  São Bartolomeu and São Cipriano

How to make the cross

Take three pieces of cedar, one longer, two shorter, to shape the arms with rosemary, rue (arruda), and celery.  Place on each arm, above and below the longest part, a small mixture of cypress.  Put in holy water for three days and take out of the water at midnight, saying the following words like a prayer:  "Cross of São Bartolomeu, by virtue of the water in which you were immersed and the plants and woods of which you are formed, free me from the temptations of the spirit of Evil, and bring me the grace of the  fortunate.  In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.  Amen.  Repeat the words, whispering, four times.

The great magic of the broad beans

Kill a black cat and place a broad bean in each eye, one below the tail and another in each ear.  Then, bury it and water the grave every night at midnight until the broad beans, after sprouting, are ripe.  Cut off the beans. After cutting, take the beans home and put them into your mouth one by one.  When, you think you are invisible, it is because the bean in your mouth has the magical property.  So, if you want to go into any place without being seen, put the magic bean in your mouth.








Observations on using this magic!

When you are watering the broad beans many ghosts will appear to frighten you so that you won't carry out the magic until the end.  The reason is simple:  it is because the demon has envy of whoever is going to use this magic, without giving himself to it heart and soul, like the witches, who he calls women of virtue.  We ask that you be not afraid, since he will not do you any harm, and for this it is good, before anything, to make the sign of the cross.

The Magic Spells of St. Cyprian

That is definitely a form of Christian witchcraft. Not the type I practice but still the real deal and a lot older than Wicca or neo-Druidism. No need to reconstruct that, it was already part of the belief system of people and developed naturally through time.

To claim "People who claim to be a christian witch,or a jewish witch ,as I've come across those too ,are merely people who need something in their lives,to feel as if they have control over their lives praying to their moms god,doesnt fulfill their wishes,so lighting a candle to hecate ,or isis ,all decorated by the local witch ,at 25$ a pop ,somehow will fix their love life,or money problems .
And sometimes,I'm sure it works,but these people aren't true pagans,by any means"

And then to assume all Christian witches approach witchcraft as described in the paragraph above is simply not accurate. Maybe those how some approach it but not all, by all means, not the ones who follow the traditions of their culture. I would never buy something for Hecate or Isis, I respect those who follow them, even integrate them in their path, but to me personally they are not part of my culture.

Afro-Caribbean paganism in some forms has animal sacrifice and dealing with the orixas. Nothing about observing the seasons or going off into the woods to do spells.

Latin-American paganism has lots to do with folk healing.

To base what is Pagan or not by measuring it against Northern European witchcraft is very ethnocentric.

It is originally the Christians who said Paganism is not part of Chrisitantiy and could never be. For Pagans to turn around and agree with them is understandable but not very accurate.

Christopagans and Christian witches are their own path, it is a blended-faith, and there are many forms and ways to blend. To go through them all claiming what is Christian or not, what is Pagan or not, or to dismiss it as Potte-type magic, well we should leave that type of judging to those who are not Christopagan. But if these judges of others would pause for a moment, they would not want others telling them what their exact path is or not.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 10 May 2013 - 01:36 PM.


#38    xFelix

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:29 PM

View Poststop yield, on 10 May 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

It's ok to use catholic saints to deceive catholics. :yes:

Errrr wrong.

They're used to compare, they're called by their respective names(not catholic names), and when the comparisons are made its always said such and such is LIKE such and such... I do believe I said that in the same exact post I mentioned how the syncretizing works... I must have forgotten that people love taking a few words out of a post out of context and making a mockery out of others.

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#39    Jessica Christ

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:32 PM

Christopaganism is supposed to be fuzzy.

Some play inside the borders. Others play with the borders themselves.

The lines in the sand some draw can only limit themselves but not others.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 10 May 2013 - 01:33 PM.


#40    Simbi Laveau

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:34 PM

View Poststop yield, on 10 May 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:


It's ok to use catholic saints to deceive catholics. :yes:

No,its the catholic church that deceives the catholics

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#41    Jesus Loves Us

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:38 PM

View PostxFelix, on 10 May 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

I must have forgotten that people love taking a few words out of a post out of context and making a mockery out of others.
Tell that to the spirit of John Paul II.


#42    Simbi Laveau

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:38 PM

View PostSimbi Laveau, on 10 May 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:


Where the hell have you been hiding the entire time I've been on this forum !?!? !!!!
Hallelujah !

During your training ,did you have to read all the books of Allan Kardec ?
That was my first assigned task .

Padrino felt this was the easiest way to teach us about how the spirit world works I suppose .
I had to read all of them ,which can be very repetative ,but I learned a lot.
I am a follower of the living Hindu saint,AMMA ,and her teachings of the other side ,and reincarnation ,and how souls look out of the body ,are almost identical to kardecs ,which I found fascinating .

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#43    Jessica Christ

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:39 PM

Christopaganism, the different forms of it, itself developed in societies which were not totally hostile to witchcraft. Where the witch could be consulted by the Christian. Where it was not suppressed. There is a natural symbiosis.

In other societies, where they burned witches, well when the witches came back, or hid what they knew, they were naturally opposed to Christianity. For the Christians there told them, over and over, they were the enemies.

Witchcraft will have developed differently in different societies. The way people look to it, the attitudes over it, are not universal. Every region will have its own outlook.

Many come from a Northern European tradition and simply are grounded in that hostility but that hostility and rigid division is not for everyone.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 10 May 2013 - 01:40 PM.


#44    Simbi Laveau

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:44 PM

View Poststop yield, on 10 May 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Tell that to the spirit of John Paul II.

He's heard it all before ,and if he's a spirit ,he couldn't care less .
You may want to read some catholic church history .Start with their assassination squads .Work your way thru the crusades and genocides of native Americans,all in the name of their one benevolent god ,and then come on up to the child abuse scandal, still rocking them today .
Religion is what the INDIVIDUAL makes of it ,now how its organized by bureaucrats ,who actually kill their own and cover up atrocities .

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#45    xFelix

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:48 PM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 10 May 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Yes, not agreeing with it, but one santero here said if you are a lesbian then he could not fully train you all the way because the orixas do not accept that.

I feel that they could be more accepting...but not here to argue that.



Well Afro-Caribbean pagans are different from Northern European pagans who are different than Southern European pagans who are different from Latin-American pagans.

They are not all centered on a Wiccan-type view of nature. To not call them all pagans is silly.


Afro-Caribbean paganism in some forms has animal sacrifice and dealing with the orixas. Nothing about observing the seasons or going off into the woods to do spells.

Latin-American paganism has lots to do with folk healing.

To base what is Pagan or not by measuring it against Northern European witchcraft is very ethnic-centric.

It is originally the Christians who said Paganism is not part of Chrisitantiy and could never be. For Pagans to turn around and agree with them is understandable but not very accurate.

Christopagans and Christian witches are their own path, it is a blended-faith, and there are many forms and ways to blend. To go through them all claiming what is Christian or not, what is Pagan or not, or to dismiss it as Potte-type magic, well we should leave that type of judging to those who are not Christopagan. But if these judges of others would pause for a moment, they would not want others telling them what their exact path is or not.

No no no omg Britney I thought we were on the same page!

That Santero should be taken out back and shot for saying he can't fully initiate homosexuals. He's obviously an idiot. There's thousands of lesbians that are not only Santeras, but massive figures within the faith. The only issue is that they can't pretend to be men, so long as they remain women who like women and do it on their own time it is PERFECTLY FINE. As a matter of fact there is even some Obba's that are gay (Obba = the highest priests before having to cross into another even more secretive side of the faith).

I'm sorry we must define paganism differently, to us paganism is the belief in nature and the balance of it as well as preservation of that balance... Simple magic is what we call lighting a candle and pray that the candle brings you luck.

As for observing the Orishas having nothing to do with nature or the seasons or going off into the woods.. That is also wrong...
There are more rituals and ceremonies about nature than sacrifices.. Even the sacrifices themselves have to do with nature.

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.





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