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#46    Abramelin

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:04 AM

View Postseeder, on 12 April 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

Octopus opens a jar!!



Yes, and it shows they are very capable of manipulating things in the surroundings.

Here's another interesting video about them (and it says that scientists look at the octopus brain and nervous system as an example for their robots):




#47    lost_shaman

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:08 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 April 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:



I think that is highly based on our human bias. We have no knowledge at all of other civilized races, and thus have no idea how they might look.

An alien might have developed in water/oceans and look like a cephalopod (octopus, squid).

"But for a species to attain intelligence..."

I have said (in the Nature forum) a couple of times that there are several biologists who have put ravens between man and apes (concerning intelligence).

+++

EDIT:

Scientists have argued for decades over whether wild creatures, including birds, show genuine intelligence.  Some still consider the human mind to be unique, with animals capable of only the simplest mental processes.  But a new generation of scientists believe that creatures, including birds, can solve problems by insight and even learn by example, as human children do.  Birds can even talk in a meaningful way.

Some birds show quite astonishing powers of recall.  The Clarke's nutcracker, a type of North American crow, may have the animal world's keenest memory.  It collects up to 30,000 pine seeds over 3 weeks in November, then carefully buries them for safe keeping across over an area of 200 square miles.  Over the next 8 months, it succeeds in retrieving over 90% of them, even when they are covered in feet of snow.

On the Pacific island of New Caledonia, the crows demonstrate a tool-making, and tool using, capability comparable to Palaeolithic man's. Dr Gavin Hunt, a New Zealand biologist, spent 3 years observing the birds.  He found that they used two different forms of hooked "tool" to pull grubs from deep within tree trunks.

Other birds and some primates have been seen to use objects to forage.  But what is unusual here is that the crows also make their own tools.  Using their beaks as scissors and snippers, they fashion hooks from twigs, and make barbed, serrated rakes or combs from stiff leathery leaves.  And they don't throw the tools away after one use - they carry them from one foraging place to another.


http://flatrock.org....s_of_deceit.htm


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You miss the point. A bird for example  could never knap a dart point no matter how "smart" it is.  A group of birds could never operate a mine and produce raw materials the way a group of Hominids can.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

#48    seeder

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:09 AM

The thing is, if saucers/star-ships are real, they are supposedly metallic, to get metal...you need to smelt ore.. which requires fire... but we don't have any species, while being smart in their own habitats, that can do that, do we?

It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
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#49    Abramelin

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:26 AM

View Postlost_shaman, on 12 April 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

You miss the point. A bird for example  could never knap a dart point no matter how "smart" it is.  A group of birds could never operate a mine and produce raw materials the way a group of Hominids can.

The funny thing is that they actually can.

And all the rest you are saying is based on human bias.

You cannot extrapolate human intentions and goals, physiognomy and whatnot to what aliens might look like and how they might act and reason.

My example of birds and cephalopods is just to show that intelligence can arise in other beings than apes or hominids.

View Postseeder, on 12 April 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

The thing is, if saucers/star-ships are real, they are supposedly metallic, to get metal...you need to smelt ore.. which requires fire... but we don't have any species, while being smart in their own habitats, that can do that, do we?

But are they made of metal?


#50    seeder

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:32 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 April 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:





But are they made of metal?

hehe, the unanswerable question...

It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

#51    Abramelin

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:34 AM

Look at the 'saws' or 'harpoons' these New Caledonian crows made:

(click to enlarge)

Posted Image


#52    seeder

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:36 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 April 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

Look at the 'saws' or 'harpoons' these New Caledonian crows made:

(click to enlarge)

Posted Image

the crows have invisibility cloaking too ! Try getting a piccy and they vanish.. :tu:


.

Edited by seeder, 12 April 2013 - 11:39 AM.

It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

#53    Abramelin

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:40 AM

What the...

http://science.org.a...gray/Slide5.jpg

OK, this sucks.

Wait a sec.

http://science.org.au/events/sats/sats2007/images/gray/Slide5.JPG


.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 April 2013 - 11:49 AM.


#54    seeder

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:43 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 April 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Wthat the...

http://science.org.a...gray/Slide5.jpg

OK, this sucks.

Wait a sec.

.

dead link, UK anyway on firefox.. (problem loading page)

It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

#55    seeder

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:45 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 April 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Wthat the...

http://science.org.a...gray/Slide5.jpg

OK, this sucks.

Wait a sec.

http://science.org.au/events/sats/sats2007/images/gray/Slide5.JPG
.

same...nada to see.

It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

#56    Abramelin

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:46 AM

Posted Image


#57    Abramelin

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:48 AM

View Postseeder, on 12 April 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

same...nada to see.

You need to copy the url and paste it into your browser. It works with FF and IE.

But I already uploaded it to Photobucket, as you can see in my former post.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 April 2013 - 11:49 AM.


#58    Abramelin

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:54 AM

And about being able to manipulate things: has anyone ever thought of spiders?


#59    lightly

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:38 PM

Sure.. spiders, birds, bees, ants ,  all can manipulate and build things.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#60    Esoteric Toad

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 01:23 PM

Other animals being able to use tools does not necessarily make a good analogy to aliens abilities. If octopus, various primates, sea mammals and some birds use tools they could still be at the end of their evolutionary 'path'. If evolution works as we believe it does the animals mentioned would have to have some sort of impetus to evolve beyond their current abilities. If that does not occur they would continue to behave as they are now for eternity...there would be no need for them to change since they are able to feed and reproduce as they are now. Perhaps if there were a mutation that would further that it would proceed beyond their current abilities but that can work against them too (competition).

Seeder, you posted a pic of a spider. I got a kick out of the always in the bathroom statement. Here in Florida there were always spiders ending up in the bath tub. They were a bit different: Their legs span about the size of my hand.
Attached File  cf0d3d0a-799d-4a92-9666-c989855be523.jpg   12.35K   1 downloads
Used to freak me out. I have this thing were I will not kill a spider but I could not bring myself to rescue these things...always had someone else do it for me. Yeah I am a guy....but I have a few phobias, so there. They do not build webs, they leap on their prey and they are fast. Freaky buggers.

edited to add: JMO :tu:

Edited by Esoteric Toad, 12 April 2013 - 01:28 PM.





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