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Ice Age Civilization


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#571    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:08 AM

View PostOniomancer, on 25 October 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

Correction, while tusks and bones belonging to thousands of individuals have been found, the number of preserved carcasses is considerably lower. From wiki:

"By 1929, the remains of thirty-four mammoths with frozen soft tissues (skin, flesh, or organs) had been documented. Only four of them were relatively complete. Since then, about that many more have been found. In most cases, the flesh shows signs of decay before its freezing and later desiccation. Stories abound about frozen mammoth carcasses that were still edible once defrosted, but the original sources indicate the carcasses were, in fact, terribly decayed, and the stench so unbearable that only the dogs accompanying the finders, and wild scavengers, showed any interest in the flesh.[43]"
Compared to the number of finds to the percentage of area excavated,then probably we can estimate how many frozen mammoths would actually be there in the region.Either ways even the bones add to the mystery since we don't know what could have wiped so many out in such a scattered manner.The bones should be checked for predator marks,or it would be safe to assume that even they died spontaneously and not because of predators.


#572    Arbitran

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:09 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 25 October 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

Evolutionist world view regime is you people,proof is not required since it is self-evident.

The links you provide are not even touching the amount of research done on the same subject,there is 150 years of research behind evolution and hence you can imagine the amount of resources and time wasted behind this futille storytelling.There is absolutely no proof for Macroevolution or evolution on a large scale,all these examples are cases of adaptations and variations observed in single cellular bacteria/virus,until there is empirical and experimental proof of class transitions etc,they remain stories.

You're hopeless...

You don't understand how science works, at all.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#573    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:11 AM

View PostArbitran, on 25 October 2012 - 05:07 AM, said:

You seem to be insinuating that no mammoth remains which were scavenged have ever been found. You have not qualified such an assumption. Again, a mud slide could bury animal, and scavengers would be incapable of accessing it. And incidentally, tar pits and ice lakes are not selective in their victims: they would trap and freeze scavengers and predators as much as they would mammoths. The freezing could not have occurred spontaneously, but it did happen very rapidly (over the course of days or weeks).
But your suggestion of tarpit can easily be dismissed by checking presence of Tar in the frozen mammoth stomach.Mud slides would again result in mud being found in the stomach content to a very high content.If they found either in the frozen mammoth stomach then i am sure that it would have been brought to notice.


#574    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:13 AM

View PostArbitran, on 25 October 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

You're hopeless...

You don't understand how science works, at all.
Science is not based on observing variation and extrapolating it to evolution and then telling stories of how one species evolved from the other either.Be scientific be empirical don't tell stories of monkeys/ape like ancestors divurging(turn into) men if you have not seen it happening.


#575    Arbitran

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:13 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 25 October 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

But your suggestion of tarpit can easily be dismissed by checking presence of Tar in the frozen mammoth stomach.Mud slides would again result in mud being found in the stomach content to a very high content.If they found either in the frozen mammoth stomach then i am sure that it would have been brought to notice.

What a ridiculous presumption. No, creatures trapped in tar pits, or buried by mudslides, needn't have stomachs full of mud or tar.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#576    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:15 AM

View PostArbitran, on 25 October 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

What a ridiculous presumption. No, creatures trapped in tar pits, or buried by mudslides, needn't have stomachs full of mud or tar.
Ok.They were probably wearing face masks so the Tar and Mud wouldn't go in when they were drowning in it.You are the one pressuming not me.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 25 October 2012 - 05:16 AM.


#577    Arbitran

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:15 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 25 October 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

Science is not based on observing variation and extrapolating it to evolution and then telling stories of how one species evolved from the other either.Be scientific be empirical don't tell stories of monkeys/ape like ancestors divurging(turn into) men if you have not seen it happening.

You seem to have a dislike of extrapolation which is unfounded. In any case, evolutionary biology today makes very few extrapolations. And again, you don't need to see something happen directly to know about it scientifically (did you not understand the Pluto orbital example I gave earlier?).

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#578    Arbitran

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:17 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 25 October 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

Ok.They were probably wearing face masks so the Tar and Mud wouldn't go in when they were drowning in it.

When did I suggest that they drowned in tar? Sure they might have effectively drowned/asphyxiated in mud, or possibly in tar, but that would only require the block of air to their lungs, not the filling of their stomach with the substances in question.

You're also neglecting the ice lake scenario.

Edited by Arbitran, 25 October 2012 - 05:18 AM.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#579    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:18 AM

View PostArbitran, on 25 October 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

You seem to have a dislike of extrapolation which is unfounded. In any case, evolutionary biology today makes very few extrapolations. And again, you don't need to see something happen directly to know about it scientifically (did you not understand the Pluto orbital example I gave earlier?).
Pluto is in space and not easily observable but a monkey turning into a man right here on earth is a pretty observable event,so if it happens we can see it and there is absolutely no need to believe it until you see it,unless you wan't to be unscientific and listen to stories.


#580    Arbitran

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:20 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 25 October 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

Pluto is in space and not easily observable but a monkey turning into a man right here on earth is a pretty observable event,so if it happens we can see it and there is absolutely no need to believe it until you see it,unless you wan't to be unscientific and listen to stories.

You've misunderstood the example, as I thought. Pluto takes more than two-hundred years to orbit the sun, and we have only known about it for eighty years; evolutionary changes of the magnitude you are fixated upon take hundreds of thousands of years to millions or billions of years; ergo, much longer than we've been watching.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#581    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:37 AM

View PostArbitran, on 25 October 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

You've misunderstood the example, as I thought. Pluto takes more than two-hundred years to orbit the sun, and we have only known about it for eighty years; evolutionary changes of the magnitude you are fixated upon take hundreds of thousands of years to millions or billions of years; ergo, much longer than we've been watching.
Pluto is non-living and far away from earth,it's orbit is calculated by it's velocity and the curvature of it's orbit.You claim evoution happens on earth and one species gives rise to another,i have never seen it happen,have you?
We can still observe pluto progressing in a orbit and we can make measurements regarding it's orbital period any number of times,can you do the same with evolution?


#582    Arbitran

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:46 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 25 October 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

Pluto is non-living and far away from earth,it's orbit is calculated by it's velocity and the curvature of it's orbit.You claim evoution happens on earth and one species gives rise to another,i have never seen it happen,have you?
We can still observe pluto progressing in a orbit and we can make measurements regarding it's orbital period any number of times,can you do the same with evolution?

The answer to both of your questions is yes.
  • I have personally been involved in speciation experimentation.
  • Evolution (though a bit less predictable in nature than Pluto's orbit), is perfectly measurable and predictable: predictable in the sense that, as I've said, it is utterly inevitable.


Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#583    Oniomancer

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:48 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 25 October 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

Compared to the number of finds to the percentage of area excavated,then probably we can estimate how many frozen mammoths would actually be there in the region.Either ways even the bones add to the mystery since we don't know what could have wiped so many out in such a scattered manner.The bones should be checked for predator marks,or it would be safe to assume that even they died spontaneously and not because of predators.

From the same wikipedia mammoth article:

" Preserved frozen remains of woolly mammoths, with much soft tissue remaining, have been found in the northern parts of Siberia and Alaska. This is a rare occurrence, essentially requiring the animal to have been buried rapidly in liquid or semi-solids such as silt, mud and icy water, which then froze. This may have occurred in a number of ways. Mammoths may have been trapped in bogs or quicksands and either died of starvation or exposure, or drowning if they sank under the surface. The evidence of undigested food in the stomach and seed pods still in the mouth of many of the specimens suggests neither starvation nor exposure are likely. The maturity of this ingested vegetation places the time period in autumn rather than in spring when flowers would be expected.[39] The animals may have fallen through ice into small ponds or potholes, entombing them. Many are certainly known to have been killed in rivers, perhaps through being swept away by river floods. In one location, by the Berelekh River in Yakutia in Siberia, more than 8,000 bones from at least 140 individual mammoths have been found in a single spot, apparently having been swept there by the current.[40][41]"

Extend the example to bodies found of other animals, including man. Corpses practically litter the countryside but we have no reason to assume a single common cause.

If one reads further, one finds that the various mammoths vary considerably in age via carbon dating.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_mammoth#Frozen_remains

Edited by Oniomancer, 25 October 2012 - 05:49 AM.

"Apparently the Lemurians drank Schlitz." - Intrepid "Real People" reporter on finding a mysterious artifact in the depths of Mount Shasta.

#584    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:50 AM

View PostOniomancer, on 25 October 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:

From the same wikipedia mammoth article:

" Preserved frozen remains of woolly mammoths, with much soft tissue remaining, have been found in the northern parts of Siberia and Alaska. This is a rare occurrence, essentially requiring the animal to have been buried rapidly in liquid or semi-solids such as silt, mud and icy water, which then froze. This may have occurred in a number of ways. Mammoths may have been trapped in bogs or quicksands and either died of starvation or exposure, or drowning if they sank under the surface. The evidence of undigested food in the stomach and seed pods still in the mouth of many of the specimens suggests neither starvation nor exposure are likely. The maturity of this ingested vegetation places the time period in autumn rather than in spring when flowers would be expected.[39] The animals may have fallen through ice into small ponds or potholes, entombing them. Many are certainly known to have been killed in rivers, perhaps through being swept away by river floods. In one location, by the Berelekh River in Yakutia in Siberia, more than 8,000 bones from at least 140 individual mammoths have been found in a single spot, apparently having been swept there by the current.[40][41]"

Extend the example to bodies found of other animals, including man. Corpses practically litter the countryside but we have no reason to assume a single common cause.

If one reads further, one finds that the various mammoths vary considerably in age via carbon dating.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_mammoth#Frozen_remains
We have no reason to assume multiple causes also.Either ways the article reaffirms that they had frozen spontaneously without much exposure or they didn't die due to starvation.Also whatever the scale of the calamity was there was a calamity.Mammoths may have been flash frozen or died due to dramatic climatic changes over a very short period of time.The "may" word stands out through out the paragraph you posted.
I don't buy that mammoths were very stupid and a lot of them used to fall through the ice or in tarpits and get frozen without having any traces of tar to suppose so.Any which ways the excerpt highlights many options but excludes a very prominent one so i think it is baised.
Carbon dating lol.......nevermind........though the article does touch on a flood causing this large scale deaths..........bible anyone?


#585    Arbitran

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:50 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 25 October 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

We have no reason to assume multiple causes also.Either ways the article reaffirms that they had frozen spontaneously without much exposure or they didn't die due to starvation.Also whatever the scale of the calamity was there was a calamity.Mammoths may have been flash frozen or died due to dramatic climatic changes over a very short period of time.The "may" word stands out through out the paragraph you posted.
I don't buy that mammoths were very stupid and a lot of them used to fall through the ice or in tarpits and get frozen without having any traces of tar to suppose so.Any which ways the excerpt highlights many options but excludes a very prominent one so i think it is baised.
Carbon dating lol.......nevermind........though the article does touch on a flood causing this large scale deaths..........bible anyone?

A flood causing large-scale death = Bible now? Where shall we begin... Katrina? There are floods apart from world-drowning ones, you know... In any case, you clearly don't comprehend the concepts presented to you here; carbon-dating in particular.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison




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