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Phoenix - Flares Debunked


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#46    psyche101

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 12:16 AM

View PostTheMcGuffin, on 17 June 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

This is an artist's rendition of a BEK.  They are usually described as asking people for rides or to come in and use the phone, things like that, but their eyes and behavior are so "off" that people find them disturbing.  These types of stories remind me very much of the MIBs.

Posted Image


Me too! Just suddenly showing up on a doorstep unannounced, and a seemingly harmless disposition whist an underlying notion of terror tends to fill the witness. This is becoming a pet project, it strikes me that there might be quite a few connections.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#47    psyche101

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 12:20 AM

View PostTheMcGuffin, on 17 June 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

That's assuming that the so-called small humanoids are the product of natural evolutionary processes, and are not somehow artificial or designed, as some people have claimed.  I've even heard stories that the dark coverings over their eyes are really protective membranes to shield them from the relative brightness of our sun, sort of like sunglasses, but of course I can't prove that.

Indeed, and one would be reluctant to speculate such as a dozen questions will be immediately forthcoming from all directions, but the protective membranes strikes me as very plausible as an ideal, we have many species right here on earth with the same eye protection, it in fact makes good sense I feel. I know it is not usually the vein of investigation I normally take, but I have always been intrigued by some of the MIB stories. I think that if there is such a thing connected the the phenomena that the indications to date are nefarious in nature.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#48    psyche101

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 01:16 AM

View Postrcarp89, on 18 June 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

First of all thank you for your calm, collected and informative response. Secondly, let me apologise for maybe coming off slightly more aggressive than was intended in the original post. My main question was not really about the Pheonix lights, and you'll be happy to know that I hold the same views as you about old and tired UFO cases. I'm bored of being excited by cases popping up on here only to find they are about 1970's this or 1980's that. I am also more personally interested in more recent sightings. I do not personally wish to argue about the PLs right now as on this specific subject, my knowledge is very limited (however I will be looking into the thread talked about earlier, thank you). Again I merely wanted to question what personal beliefs you held about extra-terrestrials and other things that science may not yet have found/explained. Also I would not like to hijack this thread, however I will post in my opinion the best case that has caught my eye in the time I have been looking into UFOs, and I await your theories on this. May I also ask if you have investigated the Disclosure Project and what you think of them and their testimonies?

This is a link to the case, declassified documents are linked on the page: http://www.cufon.org...strom/malm1.htm


Hi rcap

Thanks for the reply, very prompt and well written. I too hope I did not come of too defensive, it's a bit of a knee jerk reaction in here, I am sure you understand. The main posters to look out for in the BE threads are Lost Shaman, Perycithion and BoonyZarc. These people did a stirling job of triangulating the lights and pretty much have sewn up the case. I feel they did a better job than the so called professional UFOlogists that have attempted to explain the case to date, so I guess I am fiercely proud f UM and it's astute  members in this instance. These guys would be better to discuss the PL's with in any case as they actually did the math, which as far as I can see cannot be falsified.
I think most of us accept that intelligent life is highly probable in the Universe. As such, I am sure that some being exist that we could communicate with. Recent sightings are so lackluster compared to the vivid tales of the 50's and 60's that one has to wonder if many of them could have been explained by todays standards. But those niggling instances remain, as I mentioned my bugbear is Portage County, I just cannot convince myself that I have a good prosaic for that one, and although black ops might fit the bill, that just never sat quite right with me on that one. The disclosure project I am rather dubious of, the track record is no the best and I think these guys have something to sell. That is why I tend to side with science, repeatable experimentation is solid, if we can get that, I think we have a case closed. If we are being visited, it strikes me that logically this evidence must exist.
I have read up quite a bit on the Echo/Oscar incidents. Another good thread here tackles that subject, and it took me rather notably that Mr Robert Hastings did not manage to complete a debate here. He did visit UM full of gusto as his Internet posts might suggest, but a few questions from UM Member Leonardo seem to have had him pack his bags. Yet his main opposition James Carlson, stuck around as long as anyone asked a question, and interestingly his father Eric Carlson, one of the actual men involved in the incident, also visited UM and asked why none of the ET proponents never had the gumption to talk to him. Walt Figel his "star witness" changed his tale and Hastings dropped him like a hot potato. (same with Barlow incidentally) Then Tim Herbet, another who has worked on those very systems visited UM and showed us his blog. In it he discusses the wiring configuration, and that alone proves Hastings claims completely impossible to happen as he described them. The physical wiring that the "shutdown" route had to take simply did not exist, so he cannot possibly be correct about the UFO interference. A long list if unsavoury name calling, some outright mistakes, and his fear of Eric Carlson I do believe is a very strong indicator that Mr Hastings and his sidekick Salas are fabricating the event to sound far more grandiose than it actually was, not based on actual record. James Carlson, Erics son, has had quite a presence in here, again doing a search just on his name should offer some interesting, if not somewhat argumentative information. As such, I am sorry to say I find Mr Hastings and his claims rather far fetched. I would suggest Googling Tim Herbets blog for a good balance of the situation but I do not see hw the wiring problem can be circumvented, which is my area of expertise in the outside world, so I understand what Mr Herbert is saying, and I know he is right. Again, a lengthy thread exists here which I suggest you might be interested in reading. Very informative. Also, James Carlson has written a book on the subject which I can vouch is worth downloading, it is free and found here - LINK Also, Tim Herbert's Blog LINK I just expect if Mr Hastings had more to his story that he would not run out of steam so quickly. But all in all, the wiring configuration settles Oscar/Echo for me. It simply could not happen as descried.
Please forgive my lack of manners. Welcome to UM!

Cheers.

Edited by psyche101, 18 June 2012 - 01:19 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#49    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 04:53 AM

There have been BEK discussions on UM before, but usually on boards that I don't visit.  A lot of people do seem to doubt whether they exist at all and I certainly can't offer up any real proof that they do, only these very creepy stories.  There are stories on the Internet, such as the one about two BEKs showing up at a military base late at night and knocking on a Marine's door, asking if they could come in and read.  Marines generally don't scare very easily, but he said that his instinctive reaction towards these two was fear.  He refused to let them in and they kept knocking at the door for five minutes, and then just disappeared.  No one else on the base reported seeing them, not even the guards on duty.

I don't know what to make of stories like these.  They don't have nearly as much evidence as many UFO reports that I am familiar with: gun camera footage, radar detection, multiple witnesses, physical traces, planes firing at them, etc.  These BEK stories are truly anecdotal in ways that much of the UFO evidence is not.

I agree with Hynek that UFOs can and should be treated as a genuine scientific problem, but unless someone catches a real BEK there's not much to go on.

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#50    lost_shaman

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:19 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 18 June 2012 - 12:20 AM, said:

Indeed, and one would be reluctant to speculate such as a dozen questions will be immediately forthcoming from all directions, but the protective membranes strikes me as very plausible as an ideal, we have many species right here on earth with the same eye protection, it in fact makes good sense I feel. I know it is not usually the vein of investigation I normally take, but I have always been intrigued by some of the MIB stories. I think that if there is such a thing connected the the phenomena that the indications to date are nefarious in nature.

Hey psyche,

How do you know it's not just weird kids wearing contacts?

http://www.cosplayla...mmortaleyes.asp

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#51    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 04:38 PM

View Postlost_shaman, on 18 June 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

Hey psyche,

How do you know it's not just weird kids wearing contacts?


Or kids playing some kind of practical joke.

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#52    zoser

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 05:33 PM

I think what I'm getting at with these threads is that I believe that skeptics generally give far too little credence to witness testimony.

Where there is only one witness and no trace evidence it is partly understandable to be skeptical; however even then one has to look at the quality of the witness and the circumstances behind the person coming forward.  The police officer or a military official has a lot to loose and I would seriously question whether skepticism is appropriate.

Where there are multiple witnesses over a wide distance and over a stretch of time in the case of a UFO flap, the case becomes much harder to doubt.  Denial therefore becomes not based on reason but based on fear of the unknown or stubborn cleavage to some outdated scientific views or just intellectual avoidance.

Where there is trace evidence, denial is even worse and amounts to support for some political fan club, either conscious or semi-conscious and bears no relation to what actually occurred.

Edited by zoser, 18 June 2012 - 05:44 PM.

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#53    Sakari

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 05:45 PM

View Postzoser, on 18 June 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

I think what I'm getting at with these threads is that I believe that skeptics generally give far too little credence to witness testimony.

Where there is only one witness and no trace evidence it is partly understandable to be skeptical; however even then one has to look at the quality of the witness and the circumstances behind the person coming forward.  The police officer or a military official has a lot to loose and I would seriously question whether skepticism is appropriate.

Where there are multiple witnesses over a wide distance and over a stretch of time in the case of a UFO flap, the case becomes much harder to doubt.  Denial therefore becomes not based on reason but based on fear of the unknown or stubborn cleavage to some outdated scientific views.

Where there is trace evidence, denial is even worse and amounts to support for some political fan club, either conscious or semi-conscious and bears no relation to what actually occurred.


Zoser, my first and last reply to your silly posts.....


Evanjc has pointed out something you keep ignoring 100%....

The video you posted form a old show is about the earlier events / sighting....Those witnesses are describing the event before 10 PM.....

Your evidence is not evidence of the " flare " incident, but the incident earlier that night, it has nothing to do at all with the 10pm incident....

Therefore, this entire thread is bogus when saying it discredits the flare answer, because it is not the same incident at all.

This would be like me posting a video on Betty and Barney hill, under a thread titled " Bigfoot seen in Hawaii "....


Can you accept that you screwed up now, or at least acknowledge this issue?

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#54    Lilly

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 05:55 PM

Please stop with the ad hom remarks...debate the subject matter, not one another.

"Ignorance is ignorance. It is a state of mind, not an opinion." ~MID~

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#55    booNyzarC

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 06:03 PM

View PostSakari, on 18 June 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Evanjc has pointed out something you keep ignoring 100%....
Who is Evanjc?  Was that in another thread?


#56    itsnotoutthere

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 06:12 PM

View Postzoser, on 17 June 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Modern science?  Nuclear reactors spewing out their poisons; fossil fuels in cars for the last 100 years; burning coal in homes slowly poisoning the planet that our ancients were doing to keep warm.  Forgive me if I don't bow down to science just yet,


"Some good words there; just looking them up in dictionary .com: ok got it. You mean that there is a group of people on this forum who have a fear of acceptance regarding the UFO phenomena science and because their fear is such a powerful influence upon them they refuse to accept the truth?"

Oh the irony.

Edited by itsnotoutthere, 18 June 2012 - 06:13 PM.

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#57    DBunker

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 06:33 PM

This is beyond silly, zoser..... Please tell me that you are joking about your confusion regarding your mix-up in the two incidents?

Im also betting big money that you havent even looked at the Best Evidence thread part 3 where the Phoenix lights were put to bed (as far as ET ship goes) for good.

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#58    Sakari

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 09:40 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 18 June 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Who is Evanjc?  Was that in another thread?


I was reading a thread in cryptids and had evan on the mind...


Wow, I am getting old.......Boony...Boony...Boony

I am sorry :blush: :nw:

Edited by Sakari, 18 June 2012 - 09:41 PM.

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#59    booNyzarC

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 09:44 PM

View PostSakari, on 18 June 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

I was reading a thread in cryptids and had evan on the mind...


Wow, I am getting old.......Boony...Boony...Boony

I am sorry :blush: :nw:
No worries mate, I was just thinking that I had somehow missed a post somewhere.

It's all good!  :)


#60    psyche101

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 10:12 PM

View Postlost_shaman, on 18 June 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

Hey psyche,

How do you know it's not just weird kids wearing contacts?

http://www.cosplayla...mmortaleyes.asp


Entirely possible indeed, and in fact I agree with you that contacts are likely, my step-daughter has sported the odd pair when attending a party and they are striking, more of a passing thought on the hostile aliens subject. I just found some of the similarities to MIB interesting more than anything and noticed some parallels, and wondered just how many parallels BEK's have with MIB's.

Edited by psyche101, 18 June 2012 - 10:24 PM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who




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