278 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

Mario Dantas, on 08 January 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

Abramelin,

When you said:



Although it might even be true Incas might have sailed the Pacific, they were certainly not responsible for Polynesian colonization. I am amazed by your post, it is really intriguing that Easter Island appears to bear evidence of Inca culture and/or similar building techniques...



http://upload.wikime...uth_america.jpg




I guess one should rather ask who were the "black" and "white" people or what were they doing there, in the first place...

Anyway, Inca could have reached Easter island, even taught them how to construct "polygonal walls", as you put it. But there is more to this story than is apparent to the eye.

Regards,
Mario Dantas

I never said the Incas were responsible for the Polynesian colonization, only that they had reached Easter Island (and maybe the Galapagos) and built their typical Inca style walls there.

"I guess one should rather ask who were the "black" and "white" people or what were they doing there, in the first place..."

Wasn't that my question number 1?

Maybe Túpac Inca Yupanqui's expedition reached as far as these "Pearl islands" near Panama or islands in their neigbourhood and captured some darker skinned Mayans?

And didn't I answer what was considered 'white', and so on?


.

Edited by Abramelin, 09 January 2013 - 03:00 AM.

[the L]

Abramelin, on 09 January 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

So it's not 'common knowledge' like you said. The main discovery was the "South Sea", or the Pacific, and they (Pizarro) just went further south to explore its coasts.

But point is that those natives in Panama knew about Inca, And Mayas are not far from Panama. I think that Maya knew about Inca and otherway around.

[Abramelin]

the L, on 09 January 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

But point is that those natives in Panama knew about Inca, And Mayas are not far from Panama. I think that Maya knew about Inca and otherway around.

No, like I said: that is YOUR interpretation. They only said "south", not Inca, not Quechua. And did you ever hear of the Muisca in Columbia?

http://en.wikipedia....i/Muisca_people

And their calendar rivals the one of the Maya in complexity:

http://chb.cubun.org...ca_Calendar.pdf


.

Edited by Abramelin, 09 January 2013 - 06:13 AM.

[Abramelin]

[Abramelin]

Easter Island:

The ceremonial center of Vinapu includes one of the larger ahu on Rapa Nui. The ahu exhibits extraordinary stonemasonry consisting of large, carefully fitted slabs of basalt. The American archaeologist, William Mulloy investigated the site in 1958.

Heyerdahl believed that the accurately fitted stonework showed contact with Peru, but both Vinapu I and Vinapu II were constructed earlier than 1440 and similar work only shows up in Peru after 1440.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ahu_Vinapu

"..after 1440..."

This is part of what I posted in the opening post:

"Marching and conquering on the coast of Manta, and the island of Puna, and Tumbez, there arrived at Tumbez some merchants who had come by sea from the west, navigating in balsas with sails. They gave information of the land whence they came, which consisted of some islands called Avachumbi and Ninachumbi, where there were many people and much gold. Tupac Inca was a man of lofty and ambitious ideas, and was not satisfied with the regions he had already conquered. So he determined to challenge a happy fortune, and see if it would favour him by sea."

Well, you'd think that maybe he adopted that Easter Island style of building for his own people?

But there's a problem:

Topa Inca Yupanqui or Túpac Inca Yupanqui (Quechua: Tupaq Inka Yupanki),[1] translated as "noble Inca accountant," was the tenth Sapa Inca (1471–93) of the Inca Empire, and fifth of the Hanan dynasty.

http://en.wikipedia....a_Inca_Yupanqui


Maybe names got mixed up? Wouldn't be the first time...


Cápac Yupanqui (Quechua Qhapaq Yupanki Inka, "splendid accountant Inca") was the fifth Sapa Inca of the Kingdom of Cusco (beginning around CE 1320) and the last of the Hurin dynasty.

In legend Yupanqui is a great conqueror; the chronicler Juan de Betanzos says that he was the first Inca to conquer territory outside the valley of Cuzco—which may be taken to delimit the importance of his predecessors.

Garcilaso de la Vega reports that he improved the city of Cuzco with many buildings, bridges, roads, and aqueducts.

http://en.wikipedia....Cápac_Yupanqui

But this Yupanqui lived c. 1320 – c. 1350 :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapa_Inca

[the L]

Abramelin, on 09 January 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

No, like I said: that is YOUR interpretation. They only said "south", not Inca, not Quechua. And did you ever hear of the Muisca in Columbia?



.

That isnt my interpreatation. Thats what most historians tells about that Balboa Native conversation.
Those natives in Colombia are alternative. I never heard about them before. Thanks.

Edit:  I doubt that Historians dont know about Muisca. There is reason why anyone dont mention them in story we spoke about.
Or they should spoke? Maybe Inca is alternative empire indeed.

Edited by the L, 09 January 2013 - 11:08 AM.

[Abramelin]

the L, on 09 January 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

That isnt my interpreatation. Thats what most historians tells about that Balboa Native conversation.
Those natives in Colombia are alternative. I never heard about them before. Thanks.

Edit:  I doubt that Historians dont know about Muisca. There is reason why anyone dont mention them in story we spoke about.
Or they should spoke? Maybe Inca is alternative empire indeed.

The Muisca were famous among the conquistadores because of El Dorado, which literally means "The Golden One."

You might want to look up info about them, or about the Chibcha to which group they belong.

That historians do not mention them in this context is the same as why no one else does: we all automatically think of the Incas.

And Google "Chibcha language" : it ranges from Yucatan to southern Colombia.

It's the green area in this map:




Yes, these people knew eachother alright.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 09 January 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 09 January 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:

Spanish conquistadors led by Francisco Pizarro and his brothers explored south from what is today Panama, reaching Inca territory by 1526.

When they returned to Peru in 1532, a war of the two brothers between Huayna Capac's sons Huáscar and Atahualpa and unrest among newly conquered territories—and perhaps more importantly, smallpox, which had spread from Central America—had considerably weakened the empire.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Inca_Empire

Guess who brought the Incas smallpox... Pizarro and his men, in 1526.

It seems I guessed wrong, lol:

Meanwhile, he undertook another expedition in northern Ecuador to wipe out isolated pockets of resistance. During this campaign, he learned that an epidemic was sweeping Cuzco and the surrounding countryside. He left immediately for Quito, on the highroad to Cuzco, to deal with this crisis and arrived there about the same time the epidemic did. The pestilence had spread rapidly from Bolivia and, judging by its description, was either smallpox or measles, both of which were European diseases introduced into South America by the Spanish settlers at La Plata. The disease was probably communicated to the Andean area by the Guaraní, who had been in contact with the Spanish at La Plata. Whatever the ailment was, Huayna Capac contracted it and died about 1525, without naming a successor in the appropriate manner. This set off another struggle over the throne.

http://www.britannic...41/Huayna-Capac

[the L]

Abramelin, on 09 January 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

It seems I guessed wrong, lol:

Meanwhile, he undertook another expedition in northern Ecuador to wipe out isolated pockets of resistance. During this campaign, he learned that an epidemic was sweeping Cuzco and the surrounding countryside. He left immediately for Quito, on the highroad to Cuzco, to deal with this crisis and arrived there about the same time the epidemic did. The pestilence had spread rapidly from Bolivia and, judging by its description, was either smallpox or measles, both of which were European diseases introduced into South America by the Spanish settlers at La Plata. The disease was probably communicated to the Andean area by the Guaraní, who had been in contact with the Spanish at La Plata. Whatever the ailment was, Huayna Capac contracted it and died about 1525, without naming a successor in the appropriate manner. This set off another struggle over the throne.

http://www.britannic...41/Huayna-Capac

I thought that my memory doesnt serve me anymore. Thats relief.

About your previous post-Then these people were in between Inca and Maya so those two groups might met in neutral zone when trading.

Edited by the L, 09 January 2013 - 12:05 PM.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 08 January 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

<snip>

Of course there remain a couple of questions, like:

(1) Who were these black people Túpac Inca Yapanqui brought with him?

(2) What animal did the "skin and jaw bone of a horse" really belong to?

And an extra one:

(3) Did the Incas meet the Mayans, who also sailed the seas on huge balsa rafts?

Maybe I am wrong, but I think the Mayans are/were darker skinned than the Incas/Quechua, so these 'black people' could be no one else but Mayans.

.

(2) Could it have been the skin and jawbone of a Spanish horse??

[the L]

Abramelin, on 09 January 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

(2) Could it have been the skin and jawbone of a Spanish horse??

Maybe it was jaw bone from other animal which were unknown to person who written down account so one concluded thats horse jaws. Maybe it was some exticnt animal. Or perhaps tapir. But I vote for fossil bone, extinct animal. Maybe some type of ancient rhino, horse, lama was on Pacific Island. Speculating here.
I think that only way Inca could sail was Eastern Island but there is none gold as Im aware. Also I dont know was Galapagos inhabitat in time Inca might have sailed.

I think that in year 1511 was first officaly black slave set up foot on New world. Same year when Balboa hear rumor about Inca or Muisca.
It same year when famous Vasari was born.

Anyway it was long after that expedition.

[Scepticus]

Maybe look to the west instead of east??

[Abramelin]

the L, on 09 January 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

Maybe it was jaw bone from other animal which were unknown to person who written down account so one concluded thats horse jaws. Maybe it was some exticnt animal. Or perhaps tapir. But I vote for fossil bone, extinct animal. Maybe some type of ancient rhino, horse, lama was on Pacific Island. Speculating here.
I think that only way Inca could sail was Eastern Island but there is none gold as Im aware. Also I dont know was Galapagos inhabitat in time Inca might have sailed.

I think that in year 1511 was first officaly black slave set up foot on New world. Same year when Balboa hear rumor about Inca or Muisca.
It same year when famous Vasari was born.

Anyway it was long after that expedition.

It says skin and jaw bone, so I doubt it's a fossil.

Also, the Incas were in contact with tribes in the Amazon jungle, so they knew tapirs.

Yeah, I have thought of (escaped) African slaves too, but, like you said, they arrived in the Americas decades after Tupac Inca Yupanqui set sail to the west
.
Personally I was thinking of Melanesians; Tupac Inca Yupanqui was away long enough to have reached them, but then there is the problem with the horse again, because I don't think there were many horses in the middle of the Pacific back then, lol.


The Solomons is an archipelago of 992 mountainous islands and low-lying coral atolls. Geologically the Solomons is part of the submerged outermost crustal fold of the ancient Australian continent. The island’s interiors are ruggered and mountainous. Many of the islands are of volcanic origin. The famous Spanish explorer Alvaro de Mendana was said to have named the country in 1568 during his voyage to find the source of an old Inca Legend that told of rich lands lying west-ward of South America. The country is rich in undeveloped mineral resources including nickel, gold, bauxite, lead and phosphate.

http://www.pacificis...m/melanesia.php

In the history of Tuamotu, the Tuamotus were first discovered by Ferdinand Magellan, during his circumglobal voyage in 1521. From the Inca Empire, Tupac Inca Yupanqui is also credited with leading a nearly 10-month voyage of exploration into the Pacific around 1480. None of these visits were of political consequence, the islands being in the sphere of influence of the Pomare dynasty of Tahiti.

http://en.wikipedia....Pacific_Islands

(according to the last quote TIY must have sailed to the west when he was around 9 years old, lol
http://en.wikipedia....a_Inca_Yupanqui )

[Abramelin]

Scepticus, on 09 January 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

Maybe look to the west instead of east??

We do and we'll have to if we want to find these people with a dark skin.

[PersonFromPorlock]

Abramelin, on 08 January 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

Then show me some paper that explains to us who built the polygonal walls (in typical Inca style) beneath the moai:

Wikipedia: "Heyerdahl believed that the accurately fitted stonework showed contact with Peru, but both Vinapu I and Vinapu II were constructed earlier than 1440 and similar work only shows up in Peru after 1440."

It's also possible that one or more Easter Islanders got to South America. The Incas wouldn't have had any obvious reason to build a wall on Easter Island, but an Easter Island stonemason who found himself somehow living among the Incas would certainly have wanted to earn a living.

Edited by PersonFromPorlock, 09 January 2013 - 08:50 PM.