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Sphinx and GP dates from 10 500 BC?


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#76    tri-lobe

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 01:44 PM

View Postthe L, on 03 June 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:



Hi tri lobe,
I read your posts before about tri lobed disc. I must say that I espect that this thread become educational in the future. When something new(old) idea is brought and its huge(or fabricated) it sure will cause a lot of storm. You must espect this. Maybe thats better then not geting feedback at all. I have had some realy nice threads with valid questions yet they were or ignored or people didnt know what to say. But I highly doubt last one is cause since many of UMers would at least say something to keep fire going. I would not call them gang. They are interesting, thoughtfull, wise, educated and above all (some) polite people. I must say they are far connected on this site (who were they?? I guess skeptiks) then for example  "bizzare fringes" as first one used to call people with questions and creative ideas. But skepiks arent guilty for it. Scott and you shouldnt be scared or anything. They wont bite you. They are here fot speuculation and talk. Who say that you can wrote here same as in others forums? Personally I would be happy. Maybe I wont get answer on this forum and thats because on some questions no one knows answer. It better to have open good question then wrong answer, imho. Beside I like some of your posts I beg you that you dont fight against person fight against arguments. I dont know why Kmt worries you? He is a great and nice guy. No one say that his words are last. He is here same you and me. It just his opinon, which I respect same as others. And I can see you are upset but I would like that you calm down and that you too do some "blah blah". Because thats why we are here. And if you knows better and different we NEED you. Its like Germans used to tell when looking for new workers:" I dont want ones who thinks like me, hire someone that thinks differently."
I hope you all will calm down and stay for good.

EDIT: This could be start of wonderfull friendship although I doubt since my lack of social skills. But we could try, what do you think? :)

hello L,
thank you for the kind words......I'M open to people........

but i will call a spade a spade....

I have notice on this site....that words speak louder than actions......which is the opposite to the real world that i come from...

I have noticed on this  forum a snobbery that exist's.........
and that there's a group that follows the snobbery.....
Like the inquisition .....they attack where adifferent point of view is expressed....and they will do it like a pack of dogs.....

I believe that some of these people have raised children....what a depressing thought.......

Talk about control freaks running the asylum......

But this is this forum..........


but L I am open to discussion should you wish......




#77    thewatchman7

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:04 PM

people need to stop getting off topic,

your acting like school children.

if your going to make a claim that challenges the researched findings, please come to the table with some from of proof.


#78    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:11 PM

View Postthewatchman7, on 03 June 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

people need to stop getting off topic,

your acting like school children.

if your going to make a claim that challenges the researched findings, please come to the table with some from of proof.
Post 1. ;)

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#79    Scott Creighton

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:39 PM

Hi UM,

Well, there you have it folks – Kmt is off to seek succour in the bosom of his biased buddies and doesn’t want to play anymore. That’s his choice.  But it does not excuse his biased cherry-picking of evidence in any way, shape or form. If he had really studied AE history for 20 years as he has claimed then he would almost certainly have known folks that there is much more to the question of the Sphinx’s age and its ownership than the paltry nuggets of information he decided to present to us in his posts #26 & #27. Those posts are a first class example of the sleight of hand, of the cherry-picking of facts that are conveniently used to prop up the mainstream historical narrative, namely the flawed tomb theory wedded to the notion that Rachaf crafted the Sphinx.

But folks, stand well back a moment and take a wider perspective.  (It’s much easy to do that when you are out here on the fringe – a really cool place to be if you want to see the bigger picture). Kmt makes great play of the fact (not disputed) that the Inventory Stele dates to a much later period (26th dynasty) which – according to mainstream thought - is roughly 2000 years after the Sphinx was supposed to have been crafted. What Kmt omits to inform us is that the name Rachaf (Khafre) does not appear anywhere on the body of the Sphinx (nor on the pyramid attributed to him). The only inscription of Rachaf (or partial inscription I should say, ‘Chaf’) appears on the Dream Stele, a tablet of stone that stands between the paws of the Sphinx.

But folks, the so-called Dream Stele was created 1,000 years after the Sphinx was (supposedly) crafted and it does not state at all that Rachaf created  it. This Dream Stele, bearing the ‘Chaf’ inscription is held up as evidence by the Egyptologists and their Egypt-apologists as proof of Rachaf’s hand in creating the Sphinx. So essentially folks, it’s okay to use a stone record if it is only 1,000 years after the supposed event but NOT if it is 2,000 years after.  And it is okay for them to use the Dream Stele in this way because it offers a glimmer of support to their particular narrative with regards to the chronology and ownership of these monuments. The Inventory Stele, on the other hand, does not support their narrative so it is ignored and regarded by the Egypt-apologists as a “pious fraud”, created much later by the Saite priests to confer their cult with legitimacy.

So the Inventory Stele (written 2,000 years after the supposed time of the Sphinx) is a “pious fraud” but the Dream Stele (written 1,000 years after the supposed time of the Sphinx) is perfectly okay.  Folks - does this not reek with the utter stench of cherry-picking your evidence? Let us take a few moments here to have a look at the Inventory Stele and then we will see exactly why the Egyptologists and their apologists reject the ‘testimony’ of the Inventory Stele and why it is expedient of them to do so.

Quote

“Long live the Mezer, the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Khufu, given life.  He made for his Mother, Isis, the Divine Mother, Mistress of the Western Mountain, a decree made on a stela; he gave to her a new divine offering, and he built her a temple of stone, renewing what he had found, namely these gods in her place.

Live Horus, the Mezer, the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Khufu, given life. He found the house of Isis, Mistress of the Pyramid, by the side of the hollow of Hwran [The Sphinx] …and he built his pyramid beside the temple of this goddess and he built a pyramid for the King's daughter Henutsen beside this temple.

The place of Hwran Hor-em-akhet is on the South side of the House of Isis, Mistress of the pyramid and on the north of Osiris, Lord of Rostaw. The plans of the image of Hor-em-akhet were brought in order to bring to revision the sayings of the disposition of the Image of the Very Redoubtable.

He restored the statue all covered in painting, of the Guardian of the Atmosphere, who guides the winds with his gaze. He made to quarry the hind part of the nemes headdress, which was lacking, from gilded stone, and which had a length of about 7 ells (3.70 metres).

He came to make a tour, in order to see the thunderbolt, which stands in the place of the Sycamore, so named because of a great sycamore, whose branches were struck when the Lord of Heaven descended upon the place of Hor-em-akhet, and also this image, retracing the erasure according to the above-mentioned disposition…

The figure of this god, cut in stone, is solid and will last to eternity, keeping its face looking always to the Orient.”- Hassan, Selim, The Sphinx, p.222-23

It seems then, folks, that the Inventory Stele may actually commemorate the construction of Khufu’s pyramid in addition to the maintenance and repair works he carried out to various other structures within the Giza complex. Specifically named are the Temple of Isis and the Sphinx which, of course, clearly implies that, contrary to mainstream opinion, the cult of Osiris/Isis was highly developed (Isis is referred to as a goddess and Osiris as Lord) as early as the 4th dynasty (if not before).

Furthermore, the Sphinx, traditionally attributed to Rachaf (Khafre) by Egyptologists, could not have been built by Rachaf since it seemingly already existed in the time of his predecessor, Khufu (who apparently had it repaired). Furthermore, the Sphinx must already have been of great age if it required restoration by Khufu.

In the 1930s, when Egyptologist Professor Selim Hassan was clearing away the sands that had long since engulfed the Sphinx, he discovered that such ancient repairs had indeed been made to the head of the Sphinx and that the dimensions of the repair work he observed closely matched the dimensions stated in the Inventory Stele, 3.7 metres. Hassan also noted that a sycamore tree was growing slightly to the south of the Sphinx and, given that these trees can live for thousands of years, surmised that it may have been an offshoot of the original sycamore mentioned in the Inventory Stele that had been struck with a bolt of lightning. Traces of ancient paint (mentioned in the Inventory Stele) have also been found on the side of the Sphinx’s head. So it seems that – far from being a “pious fraud” – the Inventory Stele clearly speaks of events of proven historical fact and this must surely confer credibility upon the testimony of the Inventory Stele as a whole. For Egyptologists to simply dismiss this text because it does not fit their particular narrative is outrageous.  Rather than change their narrative they would rather dismiss the evidence that doesn’t fit their narrative. How convenient, how expedient.

Now, there is another body of evidence that lends support to the veracity of the Inventory Stele testimony. It comes from the field of geology. In 1997 (revised 1999) geologist Colin D. Reader undertook a review of the geology, geomorphology and surface hydrology of the Giza necropolis which has led to a revised sequence of development for the site.  The key findings of Reader are as follows:
  • In accordance with the conventional sequence of development, the excavation of the Sphinx post-dates the construction of Khufu's pyramid and the working of the associated quarries. Given the effect of Khufu's quarries on the surface hydrology of the site, this sequence of development largely precludes the erosion of the Sphinx enclosure by rainfall run-off25 - yet I consider that without the action of this agent of erosion, it is not possible to fully account for all the features of degradation that are present within the Sphinx enclosure. On this basis, therefore, I conclude that the excavation of the Sphinx was undertaken some time before Khufu's quarrying began, when rainfall over the more elevated areas of the Giza plateau was able to run-off a substantial catchment, gathering momentum before finally discharging into the Sphinx enclosure.
  • …there is evidence to suggest that this Fourth Dynasty activity represents only a limited phase of construction within the Sphinx enclosure and can not be used to date the original construction of either the Sphinx or Sphinx temple. According to the Egyptologist H. Ricke, a 'seam' can be identified which runs through the masonry of all four corners of the Sphinx temple. This feature can be readily identified on the south east face of the structure, adjacent to Khafre's valley temple (Plate 3ii). According to Ricke, "this [seam] marked the outside of the walls of the temple in its first building phase. The north and south colonnades of the temple...were added after the interior of the temple had been largely finished with granite sheathing. For the addition, the middle part of the north and south walls were pushed back, and great limestone core blocks were added to the outside corners of the temple, which were never finished off"26. Given that the abandoned core blocks, discovered under the Amenhotep II temple, were destined for the "...corner of the Sphinx temple" they are evidently part of Ricke's second building phase. On the evidence of the pottery found beneath the masonry, this second phase of construction, together with the limited quarrying to the north of the Sphinx temple, can be dated to the Fourth Dynasty. Ricke does not speculate on the period of time that separated this Fourth Dynasty activity from the proceeding phase of Sphinx temple construction. However, on the basis of degradation of the limestones exposed within the Sphinx enclosure, it is evident that the two operations were undertaken under different conditions of weathering and erosion and were probably, therefore, separated by a significant period of time.
  • The limited Fourth Dynasty quarry face, identified by Lehner (Figure 3 and Plate 3i), was excavated from relatively durable Member I rocks. Since being quarried in the Fourth Dynasty, this quarry face has been subject to weathering and erosion (including the processes of chemical weathering and exfoliation) and yet exhibits only slight degradation (see Plate 3i). By contrast, the same Member I beds, exposed elsewhere within the Sphinx enclosure, are more intensely degraded. The contrast in the intensity of degradation at the western limit of the Fourth Dynasty quarrying is striking (Plate 4i)29, with the exposures beyond the limit of quarrying being heavily degraded. I consider that the generally more intense degradation of the Member I rocks exposed within the Sphinx enclosure, can only be explained by attributing the construction of the Sphinx and the first phase of the Sphinx temple to a period before Khufu quarried the site, when the exposed limestone was subject to erosion by surface run-off.
  • Under the conventional sequence of development, "Khafre's" causeway (and the Sphinx), were undeveloped at the time of Khufu's quarrying. If this sequence is correct, why should the extent of the quarrying have been limited by a feature (the causeway) that was not developed until sometime after Khufu's reign? The conventional sequence of development requires us to accept that Khufu's workmen went to the trouble of opening up a second quarry to the south of the causeway, rather than remove a linear body of rock which, at the time, served no apparent purpose.
You can read Colin Reader’s full paper here: Source.

As you can see, the geology of the Giza Plateau itself strongly suggests that the Sphinx existed even before Khufu and that this geological fact is supported and corroborated by the testimony of the Inventory Stele.

So folks, as you can see from the above, there’s more – much, much more - to the historical picture of the Sphinx than the narrow, highly selective picture Kmt portrays or would probably want you to know about.  He presents only his own narrow narrative; a filtered picture of our past designed to impress upon the good folks here that there is only one truth; that all the facts are being presented to you and that they point only to the particular narrative the Egyptologists think they have properly worked out.  Folks – Kmt’s filtered, biased narrative is FAR from the whole story.

Now that you have some more facts (and these are by no means exhaustive) the choice now is yours. You have to decide who has the best evidence and the best corroborated evidence. You pays your money, you takes your choice. At least I hope you are now a bit more informed than you were before and realise that the question is not as cut and dried as Kmt & Co leads you to believe.

Best wishes,

Scott Creighton

Edited by Scott Creighton, 03 June 2012 - 03:30 PM.

"The man o' independent mind... is king o' men, for a' that." - Robert Burns

#80    tri-lobe

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:45 PM

View Postthewatchman7, on 03 June 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

people need to stop getting off topic,

your acting like school children.

if your going to make a claim that challenges the researched findings, please come to the table with some from of proof.

HEY WM,

why don't you start the ball rolling????

instead of whinge-ing....walk the walk ....do'nt regurgiate other's opinion's....
what's you're opinion???....or are you too scared to state it because of repercussion to your income....

I have nothing to worry about in this department.....I'M free to speak my mind...

what say you .....watchman...or do you just watch like some voyeur??????



#81    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:54 PM

View Posttri-lobe, on 03 June 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

hello L,
thank you for the kind words......I'M open to people........

but i will call a spade a spade....

I have notice on this site....that words speak louder than actions......which is the opposite to the real world that i come from...

I have noticed on this  forum a snobbery that exist's.........
and that there's a group that follows the snobbery.....
Like the inquisition .....they attack where adifferent point of view is expressed....and they will do it like a pack of dogs.....

I believe that some of these people have raised children....what a depressing thought.......

Talk about control freaks running the asylum......

But this is this forum..........


but L I am open to discussion should you wish......
No one can control you if you dont alow them. Even if some acts non poilte I would not call your words but be aware that Nazi and Inqusition loose because of brave people. In some sense we are all scientists. Some better some worse. We all orginize our knowledge best we can. And Einstein said: "Most people say that it is the intellect which makes a great scientist. They are wrong. It is character." So show some characther and value your knowledge, theories and hypothesis. You might loose battle but if you are not malicous and pursuit truth you will won the war.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#82    Erudite Celt

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:56 PM

CHILDREN STOP IT NOW!
Attached File  slap-fight.jpg   35.38K   12 downloads

Edited by Erudite Celt, 03 June 2012 - 02:59 PM.


#83    thewatchman7

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:59 PM

View Posttri-lobe, on 03 June 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

HEY WM,

why don't you start the ball rolling????

instead of whinge-ing....walk the walk ....do'nt regurgiate other's opinion's....
what's you're opinion???....or are you too scared to state it because of repercussion to your income....

I have nothing to worry about in this department.....I'M free to speak my mind...

what say you .....watchman...or do you just watch like some voyeur??????

hmm theres a quote comes to mind, something about opening ones mouth and removing all doubt.

but my beliefs? well im pretty sure that the sphinx was carved from existing rock on the plateau.
we know for sure rock here was quarryed to build the gp, so its most likely it was carved at the same time.

but im certainly no expert.


#84    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 03:03 PM

View PostErudite Celt, on 03 June 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

CHILDREN STOP IT NOW!
I admit that Im childish but why are you mad? Because we eat all cookies?! :P

Actually Im trying to convience tri lobe to stay and have polite "fight." This is my second time so far on UM to do that. Last time I was doing this is when I conviencing booNy to not leaving site. I never ask him did I convience him or someone else?...

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#85    Scott Creighton

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 03:04 PM

View Postthewatchman7, on 03 June 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

hmm theres a quote comes to mind, something about opening ones mouth and removing all doubt.

but my beliefs? well im pretty sure that the sphinx was carved from existing rock on the plateau.
we know for sure rock here was quarryed to build the gp, so its most likely it was carved at the same time.

but im certainly no expert.

WM,

You have been misled. No blocks were quarried from the Sphinx enclosure and used to build the Great Pyramid.  These blocks removed from the Sphinx enclosure were utilised to build the Sphinx Temple in front of the Sphinx.  See my post above for a full explanation.

Best wishes,

SC

"The man o' independent mind... is king o' men, for a' that." - Robert Burns

#86    thewatchman7

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 03:10 PM

View PostScott Creighton, on 03 June 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

WM,

You have been misled. No blocks were quarried from the Sphinx enclosure and used to build the Great Pyramid.  These blocks removed from the Sphinx enclosure were utilised to build the Sphinx Temple in front of the Sphinx.  See my post above for a full explanation.

Best wishes,

SC

i stand corrected, but where did the materials used to build the gp come from?


#87    tri-lobe

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 03:13 PM

View Postthewatchman7, on 03 June 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:



hmm theres a quote comes to mind, something about opening ones mouth and removing all doubt.

but my beliefs? well im pretty sure that the sphinx was carved from existing rock on the plateau.
we know for sure rock here was quarryed to build the gp, so its most likely it was carved at the same time.

but im certainly no expert.

HEY Wm ,

father or son......who was it?????
kufu or kafra......?????

what say you watchman??????


#88    Erudite Celt

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 03:15 PM

Regarding the Sphinx one should not forget that according to Josephus it was Abraham who brought the science of Astronomy and High Mathematics to the Early Egyptians. Even today the Jews tend to stand head and shoulders over other peoples in these fields of science.
Some interesting sources below.
http://wise-obs.tau....wish_astro.html
http://www.annettere...eed_abraham.pdf
http://www.ccel.org/...works/ant-1.htm


#89    Scott Creighton

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 03:18 PM

View Postthewatchman7, on 03 June 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

i stand corrected, but where did the materials used to build the gp come from?

Hi WM,

No worries.  Khufu used two quarries on the Giza Plateau - one to the west of the Sphinx enclosure and one in the Central area of the plateau (see image below):

Posted Image

Source.

Best wishes,

SC

"The man o' independent mind... is king o' men, for a' that." - Robert Burns

#90    thewatchman7

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 03:21 PM

View Posttri-lobe, on 03 June 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

HEY Wm ,

father or son......who was it?????
kufu or kafra......?????

what say you watchman??????

i dont know, i wasnt there.





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