80 replies to this topic

[ouija ouija]

This topic is a second try at a similar one that was closed a little while ago because posters were becoming disrespectful of each other. PLEEEASE people, keep it nice this time around. Rape is a terrible crime with immediate and long term effects. It needs to be discussed, and males and females need to work together for a better understanding of how the opposite gender to their own, views the situation. Then we need to act in accordance with that understanding.

Please bear with me as I make 3 or 4 posts that relate to aspects brought up in the previous thread.

The most important point IMO that came out of the previous thread was : 'Ideals vs Reality'. Of course we need ideals and our minds need to be constantly turned back to them, BUT, at one and the same time we must be realistic in telling women and children what the pitfalls are and teach them how to stay safe. Encourage youngsters to have ideals and to speak out about them, but remind them that they have to live in the real world in the mean time.

Ideals and reality have to co-exist. As 'eightbits' said in another thread recently: 'The ideal cannot be the enemy of the necessary'. Or, as 'Yamato' said: 'Admitting something exists does not mean advocating it'. I really don't think that this can be emphasised enough. Whilst holding tight to our ideals and promoting them whenever we can, we must not lose sight of the fact that we may be in danger from those who do not hold the same ideals as us. We may believe very strongly in our ideals, but we must never forget that others often view the world and life very differently.

[freetoroam]

Just a question....how can "ideals" be compared with a lunatic intent on rape?

we must not lose sight of the fact that we may be in danger from those who do not hold the same ideals as us.

i would by no means compare an ideal to being a part of a  warped mind, its is not their ideal, its their fantasy and they know damn well that it is not ideal in society, what is ideal to us only enhances their fantasies if it means they are going against it.

[ouija ouija]

freetoroam, on 25 January 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

Just a question....how can "ideals" be compared with a lunatic intent on rape?

we must not lose sight of the fact that we may be in danger from those who do not hold the same ideals as us.

i would by no means compare an ideal to being a part of a  warped mind, its is not their ideal, its their fantasy and they know damn well that it is not ideal in society, what is ideal to us only enhances their fantasies if it means they are going against it.

Apologies, I didn't express that very well . It would be more accurate to say that 'we may have ideals, others may not'.
I agree with what you say in your last sentence.

[Frank Merton]

My understanding is that rape is only slightly connected to sexual desire and more connected to other instincts associated with dominance and misogyny.  Of course people are complicated but it does seem that rape is a serial offense -- that is, rapists tend to repeat and the vast majority of men abhor it.  Therefore the thing to do about rape is put the men that do it in jail.

Maybe interventions could be tried in the schools, helping men understand how this evolves, but I suspect they would have minimal effect.

You notice I speak of this as something pretty much only men do.  This is just a fact.

[ouija ouija]

Some thing I didn't get to post before the last thread was closed: My own experience as a teacher, on occasion involved in the reporting of sexually abused children(plus some personal experiences), showed me that not all(obviously!), but a lot more men than you might think, still believe that rape is not a big deal for the victim. It is, they will explain, 'only sex', which is 'natural' and therefore can't be that traumatic, even if not agreed to. It is this underlying belief that has to be brought kicking and screaming into the spotlight, thoroughly examined and then killed off.

As I've just mentioned children, I'd like to say something about 'Toddlers & Tiaras', the American show about the 'pageant scene' involving very small children. A poster in the previous thread likened it to dressing-up.  
This is waaay beyond dressing-up games at home in mother's cast-offs. For the show, the mother is in complete control of the child's clothes, make-up and onstage actions ..... which is a world away from the child pretending to be someone else to see how that feels and for the fun of it, when she wants to, with just the comments of friends and family. The Pageant 'scene' is a very public display, all about winning and huge amounts of money, and worse, about false ideas of themselves. A lot of time and effort goes into competing, often, it seems, to the detriment of the rest of the family. There is something obscenely perverted and unhealthy about the Pageant 'scene' and I'm not surprised it attracts perverts to watch it on TV. The line between childhood and sexual maturity is blurred. The small children are dressed as sexually mature adults and put on public display.

[ouija ouija]

It seems that everywhere you look: TV, magazines, billboards, ads on transport, etc etc, there are photos of women exposing lots of flesh. What sort of an effect does this have on sexually frustrated males .... possibly socially awkward and/or unnattractive enough to know that they will never have a girlfriend never mind a wife and family? Everywhere they look there are women exposing vast amounts of flesh, signalling availability .... but not for them! And this is where the I-have-a-right-to-wear-what-I-want-when-I-want brigade need to sit up and take notice: it may well not be them who is attacked and raped, but they may well be the one who has sexually inflamed the man who then rapes someone more vulnerable who he feels he can easily overpower! This could be a child, a frail old person, a nun, or a scantily clad, attractive, young, drunk woman walking down a dark alley on her own at 2a.m..

It's this almost all-pervading, constant sexual stimulation for men that can tip some men into raping. It's obviously not a problem for attractive men who have little trouble finding girlfriends, but for the unnattractive men it's a constant tease with no satisfactory end result. And you can talk about self-control all you like, but that varies greatly from person to person as with all other human traits. Yes, ugly men should accept their sexless lot in life and turn their attention to higher things(sarcasm), but life isn't like that, is it? And that, I think was a large part of the problem in the previous thread: lack of life experience in some of the posters, plus, young posters interpreting older posters' views as 'old fashioned' rather than 'born out of life experience'.

[EllJay]

ouija ouija, on 25 January 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

Some thing I didn't get to post before the last thread was closed: My own experience as a teacher, on occasion involved in the reporting of sexually abused children(plus some personal experiences), showed me that not all(obviously!), but a lot more men than you might think, still believe that rape is not a big deal for the victim. It is, they will explain, 'only sex', which is 'natural' and therefore can't be that traumatic, even if not agreed to. It is this underlying belief that has to be brought kicking and screaming into the spotlight, thoroughly examined and then killed off.

As I've just mentioned children, I'd like to say something about 'Toddlers & Tiaras', the American show about the 'pageant scene' involving very small children. A poster in the previous thread likened it to dressing-up.  
This is waaay beyond dressing-up games at home in mother's cast-offs. For the show, the mother is in complete control of the child's clothes, make-up and onstage actions ..... which is a world away from the child pretending to be someone else to see how that feels and for the fun of it, when she wants to, with just the comments of friends and family. The Pageant 'scene' is a very public display, all about winning and huge amounts of money, and worse, about false ideas of themselves. A lot of time and effort goes into competing, often, it seems, to the detriment of the rest of the family. There is something obscenely perverted and unhealthy about the Pageant 'scene' and I'm not surprised it attracts perverts to watch it on TV. The line between childhood and sexual maturity is blurred. The small children are dressed as sexually mature adults and put on public display.

Regarding you first paragraph I tend to tell guys who reason like that what they would feel about being a**-raped by 3 bikers in a dirty alley one night. And if they think "it is only sex, so it cant be that bad"? They usually come around after that.

The second paragraph I think it is a form of abuse where mothers use their own kids as some kind of doll they can dress up and change clothes on to fit their own liking. Just like those who dress up their pets in clothes. They think somehow it is cool to see their 8-year-old kid dressed like a prostitute for some twisted reason.

Edited by EllJay, 25 January 2013 - 03:11 PM.

[ouija ouija]

Women really have to take some responsability here. If you agree to be alone with a man and you willingly indulge in 'heavy petting' with him right up to the point of penetration but change your mind at that point, at the very least accept that you are partly responsible if he pushes on and completes the act. YES, of course men should accept that 'no' means NO at any point, but ladies, you can't guarantee that the man you are with will/can abide by that. Neither can you assume that he won't reason that: 'she's come willingly this far, she can't really mean that she doesn't want to complete things'. I believe many rapes go unreported because the woman knows she has been foolish in putting herself in a dangerous situation.

Another really contentious point in the previous thread was to do with how people dressed(women in particular).
On the beach/at the swimming pool IS different ....... people are scantily-clad for a reason: it makes swimming easier! (or they want to tan). They may aim to be provocative too, but, the ACCEPTED(and that is very important), reason for being scantily clad is a practical one. This is very different from wearing very little in other situations where practicality is not a consideration ....... then you have to ask: WHY is that person exposing bits of themselves in that way? The line between 'attractive' and 'sexually-available-at-that-moment' has become very fuzzy in people's minds. It is interesting that male victims of rape account for only 3% of the statistics ...... is an element of this the fact that men don't expose their body to anything like the degree that women do, particularly in work situations? And can anyone tell me why they don't?

Another statistic: 43% of rapes involve more than one assailant. Guys will sometimes go along with something if others are doing it, when they may not/probably wouldn't, if they were on their own.

[little_dreamer]

I think alcohol and drugs play a factor too.    This lowers inhibitions and personal judgement is distorted.  Encouraging a girl to drink too much or, when a girl's drink has been spiked when she wasn't looking, etc.

[Daughter of the Nine Moons]

ouija ouija your question "What can we do, as individuals & as society, to minimise the number of rapes that occur?" Punish the rapists and cease blaming victims. Rape is rarely about sex. Rape is about power and dominating and subjugating another individual. Your arguments about "provacative" clothing would have more bearing in my mind if only attractive, scantily clad women ever got raped. The reality is that victims of rape are not so narrowly defined by gender, age and clothing as you portray it.

[ouija ouija]

Daughter of the Nine Moons, on 25 January 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

ouija ouija your question "What can we do, as individuals & as society, to minimise the number of rapes that occur?" Punish the rapists and cease blaming victims. Rape is rarely about sex. Rape is about power and dominating and subjugating another individual. Your arguments about "provacative" clothing would have more bearing in my mind if only attractive, scantily clad women ever got raped. The reality is that victims of rape are not so narrowly defined by gender, age and clothing as you portray it.

Many rapists are punished(and many, maybe most), victims are not blamed. Maybe the punishment has to be much more severe?

Does the first paragraph of post #6 make my thinking a bit clearer to you?

Edited by ouija ouija, 25 January 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[Frank Merton]

I think women should be able to wear what they want to wear, end of subject.  Rapists generally look for women in places where they can get away with it, so good sense in where one goes and in keeping one's residence secure is all women should need be concerned with.

Its interesting that many rapes are against older or otherwise "undesirable" women -- indicating that it isn't normal lust here but power and hate.  Put them in jail -- which requires that authorities takes a woman's claims seriously.

[Sky Scanner]

Frank Merton, on 25 January 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

I think women should be able to wear what they want to wear, end of subject.  Rapists generally look for women in places where they can get away with it, so good sense in where one goes and in keeping one's residence secure is all women should need be concerned with.

Its interesting that many rapes are against older or otherwise "undesirable" women -- indicating that it isn't normal lust here but power and hate.  Put them in jail -- which requires that authorities takes a woman's claims seriously.

Amen to that.

Many who have studied the criminal statistics on this say that location is the most important aspect here, regardless of looks and clothing, or even flirtatious behaviour. Rapists look for opportunity, so being aware of your surroundings and not putting yourself in vulnerable positions seems to be top of the list.

[Daughter of the Nine Moons]

ouija ouija, on 25 January 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

Many rapists are punished(and many, maybe most), victims are not blamed. Maybe the punishment has to be much more severe?

Does the first paragraph of post #6 make my thinking a bit clearer to you?

This paragraph?

ouija ouija, on 25 January 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

It seems that everywhere you look: TV, magazines, billboards, ads on transport, etc etc, there are photos of women exposing lots of flesh. What sort of an effect does this have on sexually frustrated males .... possibly socially awkward and/or unnattractive enough to know that they will never have a girlfriend never mind a wife and family? Everywhere they look there are women exposing vast amounts of flesh, signalling availability .... but not for them! And this is where the I-have-a-right-to-wear-what-I-want-when-I-want brigade need to sit up and take notice: it may well not be them who is attacked and raped, but they may well be the one who has sexually inflamed the man who then rapes someone more vulnerable who he feels he can easily overpower! This could be a child, a frail old person, a nun, or a scantily clad, attractive, young, drunk woman walking down a dark alley on her own at 2a.m..

No it doesn't. You are still not laying the blame where it is due. Rape is a crime  therefore you must blame the perpetrator of the crime. The rapist, not the victim and not even society. A person must be accountable for their actions.

You narrowly define rapists as "sexually frustrated males .... possibly socially awkward and/or unnattractive enough to know that they will never have a girlfriend never mind a wife and family?"

Rapists, like victims are not narrowly defined by socio-economic limitations, nor are they defined by gender for that matter. Teachers, priests, cops firefighters, family men, pillars of the community, strangers, husbands, boyfriends, bosses. Anyone of them can be a rapist not just "awkward, sexually frustrated males."

You choose not to understand that rape is not about sex, it is about power. It is about taking something that is not yours to take.

I also want to make this clear that I am talking about rape and not about false accusations of rape which is a different issue in itself

[Liquid Gardens]

ouija ouija, on 25 January 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

Many rapists are punished(and many, maybe most), victims are not blamed.

I think you kinda get perilously close to blaming the victim yourself here:

Quote

And this is where the I-have-a-right-to-wear-what-I-want-when-I-want brigade need to sit up and take notice: it may well not be them who is attacked and raped, but they may well be the one who has sexually inflamed the man who then rapes someone more vulnerable who he feels he can easily overpower! This could be a child, a frail old person, a nun, or a scantily clad, attractive, young, drunk woman walking down a dark alley on her own at 2a.m..

I realize you discuss this from the point of view of the scantily clad woman inciting the rapist to go rape someone else, but I don't see how your logic changes if the rapist, in your scenario, ends up raping the scantily clad woman herself; in both scenarios you seem to be, if not blaming, at least criticizing the scantily-clad woman for doing something wrong, you seem to disagree that women actually do have a right to wear what they want by using the somewhat mocking word, 'brigade'.  It's not just blaming the victim that's the problem, it's not placing the blame squarely and solely on the criminal themselves.  This is in addition to the other posters who have noted correctly that it's usually not dressing sexy that is inciting the rape; I'm not sure what the percentage is but I'm pretty sure that the majority of rapes are committed by someone the victims actually know or who are acquaintances.

It's a mistake also to assume that women showing a lot of flesh are signalling availability, that simply does not necessarily follow.  There are lots of reasons a woman may show skin that you are not accounting for nor ruling out, and 'a lot of flesh' is usually very subjective.