103 replies to this topic

[Leonardo]

I suffer from an anxiety disorder. To accommodate that I exhibit safety behaviours - routines; avoidance; obsession with detail; and others. Self-analysis of these behaviours is quite eye-opening, informative as to how much of our behaviour really is based on anxiety.

Which leads me to religion.

Most of us, at some point in our lives, will feel anxious about something. Like questions that have no answer. What happens when I die? Am I a good person? What is the universe? etc. Some of these dilemmas are unanswerable in fact (like what happens after death), while some are unanswerable because they are totally subjective.

There are people who do not fret too much about these questions, or don't fret about some of them. But there are people to whom these questions (or some of them) pose a 'real'* problem. This causes anxiety and what do we do to relieve anxiety?

We undertake safety behaviours.

Like religion.

I was tempted to post this in the 'Philosophy and Psychology' forum, but I feel it might get much more attention in this forum, so I would appreciate your views.

* I placed real in quotes because the problems are only perceived to be real, not experienced to be real.

Edited by Leonardo, 07 May 2012 - 07:02 PM.

[Star of the Sea]

Hi Leonardo,

Anxiety can be quite debilitating, so I hope for you that you are able to manage it! Having said that, you make a very good point about to whether people turn to Religion to alleviate anxiety. I know for a fact that having faith in God can help people suffering with anxiety.. it gives them hope and comfort. I do however think that the benefits from Spirituality/Faith go much further than that.

Here in the UK faith is respected by the NHS Mental Health Professionals and view it as very important to supporting and helping people with mental health issues. If a person suffers from anxiety and finds/knows God then there is a sense of handing over one's problems to him. I guess what Jesus said was very profound and invokes the feeling of love, comfort and safety:

Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened,
and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me,
for I am meek and humble of heart;
and you will find rest for yourselves.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden light.

Edited by Star of the Sea, 07 May 2012 - 08:03 PM.

[ouija ouija]

I agree with the OP, everyone has something that helps them get by: drugs, alcohol, over-eating, over-exercising, never being alone, watching TV/going online excessively, religion etc etc. ....... anything that distracts our attention and means we don't have to look too closely at the 'big' questions; or someone else(God) deals with them for us!

[Leonardo]

Thanks for the replies Star and Ouija.

One of the important aspects of safety behaviours, is they are used to absolve/reduce anxiety from worries which are not 'real'. What are your opinions as to what this says about religion?

Edited by Leonardo, 07 May 2012 - 09:23 PM.

[and then]

Because many of them are unanswerable, we look for diversion to cope OR we find meaning in ancient scripture to find reasons for what ails our mind.  That, of course, just sets up new things to worry about since with 3 people you'll almost always have 5 opinions... but I think that religion is just man's attempt to thrust a torch out into the darkness and keep away the things that might come in the night.  The important ingredient is belief.  Without faith religion is as meaningless as political campaign promises.  With faith I think man can conquer darkness, of mind, of spirit.  There is little enough comfort in the world, and almost nothing that can be honestly described as peace.  So if a set of rules based on the experiences of the billions who came before can offer some comfort, I'm all for them.  So long as they do not espouse a need to kill in this modern day.

[Sherapy]

Leonardo, on 07 May 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

Thanks for the replies Star and Ouija.

One of the important aspects of safety behaviours, is they are used to absolve/reduce anxiety from worries which are not 'real'. What are your opinions as to what this says about religion?

Leo, are you familiar with Albert Ellis? Anyways  in 101 type Psychology courses that have to do with coping in Modern Life, he usually comes up.  He came up with Rational-emotive behavior therapy as an approach that focuses on altering the patients  patterns of irrational thinking  to reduce maladaptive patterns emotions/ patterns.

http://www.rebt.org/

You might find some good stuff in here, or not.

All the best to you on finding ways to cope.

To address your question; my Mom got through some serious stuff because of her faith in g-d. Now, for me, I  take a different approach that doesn't involve deities. I lean on self efficacy and the fact that I am older (45) it's an asset. I have had enough experiences to know that I can get through anything,  or 'this too shall pass.'  With maturity comes this sense I can get through things. It may not be g-d, but it's still a coping mechanism, that serves me in those moments that I am rattled by the fear of the unknown. Plus, it's part of the human experience to have moments of not feeling competent in/about certain situations at times. I personally think whatever works for one, gets them through-- is okay.

Excellent topic, by the way.

Edited by Sherapy, 07 May 2012 - 10:35 PM.

[Leonardo]

Good posts, and then and Sheri - and thanks for the link Sheri.

While safety behaviours do allow for a temporary cessation or reduction of the anxiety, they do not remove the (mostly imaginary) worry that causes the anxiety. Superstitions are safety behaviours - such as a football player who believes his side will only win if he wears his "lucky socks". Experiment on these sorts of safety behaviours reveals there is no link between the behaviour, and the worry.

Yet many of us still continue these behaviours.

With worries such as "what happens after I die" there can be no experimentation to demolish the linking of the safety behaviour to the worry, so the behaviours (and superstitions) built upon these sorts of worries tend to be powerful and enduring. Like religion.

This does not mean that [some] religious behaviour is rational, only that it is immune to discrediting via evidential means.

[Cybele]

For me, and I'm sure many others as well, anxiety (or at least acute anxiety) doesn't arise from pondering big questions such as the one you mention; rather, it comes from everyday concerns about health, social interactions, academic and career performance, etc.

I have never found any sort of religion or spirituality to be capable of alleviating these sorts of anxieties, which I suppose makes sense. The concerns you mention are out of our hands, while the ones I list above are largely under our control. On the other hand, I have found spirituality to be helpful in temporarily relieving depression--to help "fill the void" so to speak. In this sense, religion or spirituality can serve as a psychological crutch, or "safety behavior", as you call it. I don't think it's wise to rely on safety behaviors long-term. I see this as avoidance and escapism. Better to contemplate death and other inevitabilities that provoke fear, learn to  accept it, and live life as best you can, than to adopt a belief system for the purpose of denial or reassurance. For me, accepting the concept of an afterlife as a way of coping with a fear of death was never an option, because my logical side just isn't buying it.

Edited by Cybele, 08 May 2012 - 10:08 AM.

[Seeker79]

Leonardo, on 07 May 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

I suffer from an anxiety disorder. To accommodate that I exhibit safety behaviours - routines; avoidance; obsession with detail; and others. Self-analysis of these behaviours is quite eye-opening, informative as to how much of our behaviour really is based on anxiety.

Which leads me to religion.

Most of us, at some point in our lives, will feel anxious about something. Like questions that have no answer. What happens when I die? Am I a good person? What is the universe? etc. Some of these dilemmas are unanswerable in fact (like what happens after death), while some are unanswerable because they are totally subjective.

There are people who do not fret too much about these questions, or don't fret about some of them. But there are people to whom these questions (or some of them) pose a 'real'* problem. This causes anxiety and what do we do to relieve anxiety?

We undertake safety behaviours.

Like religion.

I was tempted to post this in the 'Philosophy and Psychology' forum, but I feel it might get much more attention in this forum, so I would appreciate your views.

* I placed real in quotes because the problems are only perceived to be real, not experienced to be real.

Religions certainly can be a safety behavior even a control behavior, but spirituality is the base of religion. Spirituality is a response to experiences not superstition. These experiences generally happen in altered states of conciousness. OBEs NDEs..... Etc. these experiences have been around since man has been around. Dosnt matter what anyone says when you find yourself floating above your body, it's kinda hard not have some concept of spirituality. Not at all a psycologic response to fear.

Edited by Seeker79, 08 May 2012 - 05:00 PM.

[Sherapy]

Cybele, on 08 May 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

For me, and I'm sure many others as well, anxiety (or at least acute anxiety) doesn't arise from pondering big questions such as the one you mention; rather, it comes from everyday concerns about health, social interactions, academic and career performance, etc.

I have never found any sort of religion or spirituality to be capable of alleviating these sorts of anxieties, which I suppose makes sense. The concerns you mention are out of our hands, while the ones I list above are largely under our control. On the other hand, I have found spirituality to be helpful in temporarily relieving depression--to help "fill the void" so to speak. In this sense, religion or spirituality can serve as a psychological crutch, or "safety behavior", as you call it. I don't think it's wise to rely on safety behaviors long-term. I see this as avoidance and escapism. Better to contemplate death and other inevitabilities that provoke fear, learn to  accept it, and live life as best you can, than to adopt a belief system for the purpose of denial or reassurance. For me, accepting the concept of an afterlife as a way of coping with a fear of death was never an option, because my logical side just isn't buying it.

I think you bring in a really good suggestion, there are just some things that we have no control over and accepting them for what they are is a viable option.


I think having a realistic perspective on the life that one is leading helps; for ex, we are in construction and it is feast or famine. It is simply the nature of the business, we cannot control the ebbs and flows of the market, but we can and do have a strategy that gets us through the low times. We have a savings for these times;connections. So when the market is lean we are prepared; we have a workable strategy. We have experience on our side, we once had 200 dollars to our name, no jobs, we bought a map, picked a spot, and drove/ended up at the beach. We got jobs and found  a place to live, the next day, and have since built a great life here. (15 years now.) We look at life as an adventure, fun, and exciting, full of opportunity.

My hubby and I together can survive/deal/face anything. My husband literally doesn't worry about anything, he says he addresses the things he can and lets go of the things he cannot.

Edited by Sherapy, 08 May 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[Star of the Sea]

Leonardo, on 07 May 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

Thanks for the replies Star and Ouija.

One of the important aspects of safety behaviours, is they are used to absolve/reduce anxiety from worries which are not 'real'. What are your opinions as to what this says about religion?

Hi Leonardo,

It all depends on what you perceive to be 'real'. We all have our own 'frame of references' and 'beliefs' and what is 'real' for one is not for another. What comforts one person may cause anxiety in another.

We could take a look at Christianity and say that it could bring about certain anxieties, which can appear paradoxical as Faith should bring about peace of mind. For example the Catholic belief of 'losing eternal life' if one dies in a 'state of mortal sin' can appear pretty scary and controlling, but only for those that don't understand or have no faith! . I have no need to be anxious about my beliefs as I have faith in what Christ has promised to those who follow him. You have to approach your faith with confidence and not fear.

Religion can not serve a person if they are unable to find solace in it.  If a person finds that their faith is making them more anxious then that's a 'red flag'. There are people who suffer from 'free floating anxiety' and who are more sensitive to 'triggers of anxiety' and religion could be one of many other factors in their life that needs addressing. Intervention is needed and professional help to overcome it with therapy such as Cognitive Behavioural Therapy.

Edited by Star of the Sea, 08 May 2012 - 06:26 PM.

[Leonardo]

Star of the Sea, on 08 May 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

Hi Leonardo,

It all depends on what you perceive to be 'real'. We all have our own 'frame of references' and 'beliefs' and what is 'real' for one is not for another. What comforts one person may cause anxiety in another.

That we might all exist within our own frame of reference, Star, does not suggest that reality is different for each of us. There is a psychological reality that might differ, but that is not 'real' - it is totally dependent on the person's thoughts and has no reality for anyone else, except through the behaviour of that person.

Quote

We could take a look at Christianity and say that it could bring about certain anxieties, which can appear paradoxical as Faith should bring about peace of mind. For example the Catholic belief of 'losing eternal life' if one dies in a 'state of mortal sin' can appear pretty scary and controlling, but only for those that don't understand or have no faith! . I have no need to be anxious about my beliefs as I have faith in what Christ has promised to those who follow him. You have to approach your faith with confidence and not fear.

As someone who has no religious belief, the thought of dying in "a state of mortal sin" has no meaning to me - hence it cannot cause any anxiety. It is only to someone who believes in "mortal sin" (i.e. a religious believer) that such a concept may be a source of anxiety. Thus religion feeds off anxieties it creates within it's adherents. What better mechanism to reinforce that belief?

The safety behaviour (religious devotion) brought about by that belief reduces anxiety induced by the belief itself. The adherent feels comforted by this safety behaviour, and the belief is reinforced. It's a vicious circle of belief feeding belief. And the source of this anxiety is not 'real', it is purely psychological. There can be no evidence this safety behaviour (religion) has any effect on what happens to us after death.

Quote

Religion can not serve a person if they are unable to find solace in it.  If a person finds that their faith is making them more anxious then that's a 'red flag'. There are people who suffer from 'free floating anxiety' and who are more sensitive to 'triggers of anxiety' and religion could be one of many other factors in their life that needs addressing. Intervention is needed and professional help to overcome it with therapy such as Cognitive Behavioural Therapy.

Religion only serves to temporarily mitigate the anxieties promoted by religion. It serves no other purpose that is meaningful in life*. I would modify your opening sentence of this paragraph to state that religion serves no purpose to anyone - because it causes the very anxieties those who adhere to it wish to find solace about.

* I would caveat that by saying religion does provide a sense of community, but a person does not have to follow a religion to be part of a community. So religion is not necessary to have a sense of community.

[Knight Of Shadows]

hey leo ..
you know it's not just safety behaviour
it's in human nature the need to be follower of a lord or something bigger ..
to be part of something bigger than humans and to worship a god of some sort
since the dawn of times all cultures and all nations have had their different god to follow and worship
so i guess it's in our nature it's a need to us

as far as it is for safety
well i think it holds some sense in it .. it's not what i think but i think it might make sense to people
you see personally when i feel anxiety or unanswered questions i do the opposite i don't embrace religion
i actually stray further away and am guessing there's more people like me out there
so religion can also be the cause of anixity and stress and not the cure for them also

[Star of the Sea]

Leonardo, on 08 May 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

That we might all exist within our own frame of reference, Star, does not suggest that reality is different for each of us. There is a psychological reality that might differ, but that is not 'real' - it is totally dependent on the person's thoughts and has no reality for anyone else, except through the behaviour of that person.



As someone who has no religious belief, the thought of dying in "a state of mortal sin" has no meaning to me - hence it cannot cause any anxiety. It is only to someone who believes in "mortal sin" (i.e. a religious believer) that such a concept may be a source of anxiety. Thus religion feeds off anxieties it creates within it's adherents. What better mechanism to reinforce that belief?

The safety behaviour (religious devotion) brought about by that belief reduces anxiety induced by the belief itself. The adherent feels comforted by this safety behaviour, and the belief is reinforced. It's a vicious circle of belief feeding belief. And the source of this anxiety is not 'real', it is purely psychological. There can be no evidence this safety behaviour (religion) has any effect on what happens to us after death.



Religion only serves to temporarily mitigate the anxieties promoted by religion. It serves no other purpose that is meaningful in life*. I would modify your opening sentence of this paragraph to state that religion serves no purpose to anyone - because it causes the very anxieties those who adhere to it wish to find solace about.

* I would caveat that by saying religion does provide a sense of community, but a person does not have to follow a religion to be part of a community. So religion is not necessary to have a sense of community.

Hi Leonardo,

But your 'frame of reference' Leonardo and 'belief systems' (schemata) no matter what they are, makes you the
person you are today, hence in every day life (in reality) is greatly affected by your worldview and in turn shows in your behaviour. Therefore, reality for each person is driven by our cognition within the parameters set by our 'belief systems'.

You are displaying this now in your post, by saying "Religion only serves to temporarily mitigate the anxieties promoted by religion. It serves no other purpose that is meaningful in life" This is not a belief held by everyone Leonardo, it is not possible to say what is and isn't meaningful to another person, that is and always will be subjective.

Here is another belief of yours which is not held by most religious people "Thus religion feeds off anxieties it creates within it's adherents. What better mechanism to reinforce that belief?' As you see no benefits in religion within your life you have created a worldview that religion feeds off anxieties when most of the time the opposite is true!

Sure your statement "There can be no evidence this safety behaviour (religion) has any effect on what happens to us after death" is true... but that is why we call it 'faith'.

[Mr Right Wing]

Leonardo, on 07 May 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

I suffer from an anxiety disorder. To accommodate that I exhibit safety behaviours - routines; avoidance; obsession with detail; and others. Self-analysis of these behaviours is quite eye-opening, informative as to how much of our behaviour really is based on anxiety.

Which leads me to religion.

Most of us, at some point in our lives, will feel anxious about something. Like questions that have no answer. What happens when I die? Am I a good person? What is the universe? etc. Some of these dilemmas are unanswerable in fact (like what happens after death), while some are unanswerable because they are totally subjective.

There are people who do not fret too much about these questions, or don't fret about some of them. But there are people to whom these questions (or some of them) pose a 'real'* problem. This causes anxiety and what do we do to relieve anxiety?

We undertake safety behaviours.

Like religion.

I was tempted to post this in the 'Philosophy and Psychology' forum, but I feel it might get much more attention in this forum, so I would appreciate your views.

* I placed real in quotes because the problems are only perceived to be real, not experienced to be real.

Belief in things after death isnt an anxiety for me. I've always been interested in how things work and I find reality and existance to be fascinating topics

Anxiety disorders are self-created. A shock or a distressful event can reprogram your mind leaving you with an anxiety disorder. A psychologist can deprogram them out of your mind. If an event caused post traumatic stress it takes time for the psychologist to get you there. Maybe even years.