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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#6511    The Puzzler

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 04:21 AM

I know what I see, a changeover from Moon cult to Sun cult with some of these Gods and Goddesses, just like Dionysus was changed and his Moon mother Semele, a Phoenician influence in Greece (Thebes) was killed off and he was raised by Zeus. It's an attempt to wipe the Moon cult out even back then. Isis may be the same, same as Apollo, he was once the Moon but also referred to later as a Sun God.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#6512    granpa

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 04:25 AM

View Postgranpa, on 08 October 2011 - 02:09 AM, said:

aphrodite is venus.

like eros she belongs to a class of gods that are hard to define exactly

they have associations with many things.

sun, moon, venus, the dome of the sky, sex, life...



I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.

#6513    granpa

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 04:27 AM

lucifer (venus) is a false sun god.

like the sun he rises in the east 'bringing light'.

but he is not the true sun.

I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.

#6514    Abramelin

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 12:05 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 08 October 2011 - 03:50 AM, said:

That's all fine but the OLB says the Magyar were around when Atland sank, 2193BC - so really you are just going off track on your mission to discredit it.

You already answered any questions I had about why the Vikings were called Magi.
Btw, I hope you remember what I posted (you were gone for a while) about the Vikings being called "Magi" by the Arabs? And why? Because according to the Arabs these Viking raiders were 'fire worshippers', and that was the Arab way of saying these Vikings had a primitive religion.

Of course the Vikings did, they came up from Russia.

You THINK that Godfried the Viking is Godfreyath the Witkening - I could call it a 'vague connection' - I'm ignoring it cause I have plenty of my own unsubstantiated ideas to deal with.

No, the Vikings that were called Magi were those who travelled through the North Sea, to the south and into the Med.
Those that went east/south got a different name from the Arabs.

And the reason they were called 'fire worshippers' is because of the experience of the Muslem Arabs with the Farsi, who were indeed fire worshippers and who they had been in contact with. And to call someone a 'fire worshipper' was similar to us nowadays calling someone else a Neanderthal.

About this Godfried: he was the first to show up on Frisian coasts, and his name was both Godfried the Seaking and Godfried the Viking, like I showed you some time ago. And then , in the OLB, there is this Godfreyath the Witking, the Seaking. Nowhere in the OLB do we read when he lived, only that he introduced numerals into the Fryan writing system.

The first and only place where the Vikings came in contact with the Arab numerals (who had copied it from the Indians) was Seville and Granada, the very first Muslem cities to be raided by them, cities that were part of the Thirteenth Caliphate. My problem is proving these first Viking raids on Muslem territory were done under the command of this Godfried the Viking/Seaking.

And about that date, 2194 BC, no one here has even been able to prove that all the disasters, and I mean ALL of them, as described in the OLB took place at that date.
All anyone could come up with was droughts and movements of peoples around that time, but no sinking lands, no rising mountains, no huge fires continental wide, and so on and so on.

Then there are the many similarities of place names on real presnt Frisian and old Frisian territory that have 'echos' in the OLB, only transplanted to a couple of thousand years earlier.

Too many coincidences to simply ignore, I'd say.

And if you really think those coincidences are 'too vague', then I hope you realize what you yourself have been posting here.

And when you did find an ancient source that could corroborate part of the OLB narrative (the story, not the time line), it is always only an ancient Greek or Roman source, sources well known by the writers of the 19th century.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 08 October 2011 - 12:33 PM.


#6515    Abramelin

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 12:48 PM

Menno, this is what I posted long ago, about Lindahem:

(and read the rest here: http://www.unexplain...84645&st=4155  )


View PostAbramelin, on 05 April 2011 - 10:41 AM, said:

Read the next rant, please:


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++




After I found a Finnish generic name for a hillfort, a name close to the OLB Lindasburgt (in south-west Skenland/Schoonland), I focussed on the southern part of Sweden (Skĺne Lĺn ) to find other locations with a 'Linda' in their name.


Here's something that's quite close to the "Lindaoorden':

Linderödsĺsen
http://en.wikipedia....Linderödsåsen


Linderödsĺsen is named after the parish name Linderödsĺsen which in turn contains Linde (linden stocks) and Ryd (clearing). Ĺsen utgör i likhet med mĺnga av de andra skĺnska ĺsarna en geologisk gräns, den sk Tornqvistlinjen . The ridge is similar to many of the other ridges in Skĺne a geological boundary, known as the Tornqvist line
http://sv.wikipedia....Linderödsåsen




Not satisfied, I played a bit with the letters, and tried "Lindenoorden".... but nothing.

OK, then "Lindenoord", and BINGO !!

This "Lindenoord" is a centuries old villa in the city of Wolvega, Friesland, and close to that now 'famous' river 'De Linden'(district of Weststellingwerf, Friesland).

But that's not all... this was also the villa where once Willem van Haren lived, the man who wrote a huge poem about the Friso and his adventures in India and elsewhere (Gevallen van Friso, koning der Gangariden en Prasiaten
), a poem discussed and analyzed by Joost Halbertsma.

Not only was Willem a writer/poet, he was also a grietman (OLB: grevetman), something between a mayor and judge.

Did this 'Lindenoord' suffer in any way? Yes, it was burned down, and much of the library was lost in 1776. After that is was rebuilt again.

http://nl.wikipedia....Zwier_van_Haren
http://www.stinsenin.../Lindenoord.htm

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolvega
http://en.wikipedia....eststellingwerf
http://nl.wikipedia....nten_in_Wolvega
http://nl.wikipedia....gwerf_Linde.png
http://www.stellingw...inde/linde1.JPG
http://www.toeristen.../3/WOLVEGA.html


==

So, instead of focussing on southern Sweden, I just played with the letters of the Linda-locations in the OLB. It's my idea that the creators of the OLB simply looked for placenames in some atlas, places that started with "Lind- " , and added a distorted form of that placename to the story.



Another placename in the OLB is "Lindahem" . Now what does the OLB say about Lindahem?


"My father has written how the Lindaoorden and Lindgaarden were destroyed. Lindahem is still lost, the Lindaoorden partially, and the north Lindgaarden are still concealed by the salt sea."

I tried "Lindenheim", but all I found was something on a Dutch Wiccan site that told about a last witch-burning in 1798.
http://www.archive.s...n_nederland.htm

All I was able to find out is that this place is somewhere in Germany, but that's it.



Another try: "Lindheim".. nothing... "Lindenhem".. still nothing... maybe "Lindesheim"?? BINGO !!

The first hit, after I skipped past all the holiday sites, is this:

Lindesheim - ein verschwundenes Dorf bei Offstein
http://www.regionalg...lindesheim.html

In case you can't read German: "Lindesheim, a vanished village near Offstein".

Vanished vilage??? Remember, all the OLB tells us about Lindahem is: "Lindahem is still lost"....


Lindesheim wurde bereits im Mittelalter um 1350 verlassen und ging vollständig unter. Hierüber erzählt der Volksmund im Zusammenhang mit der Geschichte der Dirmsteiner Glocken.

Lindesheim was abandoned during the Middle Ages around 1350 and went under completely. It's mentioned in legends in the context with the history of the Dirmstein Bells.


http://de.wikipedia....wiki/Lindesheim
http://de.wikipedia....rche_(Dirmstein)#Geschichte_der_Dirmsteiner_Glocken (forget about this, no clues at all)


But when trying to Google some pics, I again found a "Lindenheim" with an -n- instead of an -s- :

Posted Image

Nice little 'citadel/burgt', right? Well, the lost village itself was located near this hillfort/castle. That is IF Lindesheim = Lindenheim.

Now look at the surrounding area of this Lindenheim:

Posted Image

Lindenheim is at the lower end of the image, but look at what it says a little up/left... "Lindengrunden". Now that means something like "area with Linde/lime trees" or... Linden-oorden. :)


Posted Image

http://ruciane-nida....topic.php?t=211

Oh, and from this Polish site I understand it's near Friedrichshof, west of Berlin, god.


+++

http://www.ahrensbur...pler-mieten.de/

Well, it could be a misspelling or Lindesheim (the lost village) is in south Germany (near Offstein), and the Lindenheim (with the castle and with those 'Lindengrunden') is in east Germany. I am getting quite confused now..

Heh, and here one in Switserland: http://www.panoramio.../photo/21181985, but that's just a hotel... phhew.


And... here one in northern Germany, near Ahrensburg (north-east of Hamburg, Schleswig-Holstein)
http://maps.google.n...ved=0CCQQ8gEwAA


So, in short: there is a 'lost village' called Lindesheim in soouth Germany, there is a village with castle/hillfort near 'Lindenoorden' called Lindenheim, in east Germany, and there is one near Ahrensburg in Schleswig-Holstein, close to where we better go look for a 'Lindahem'. The Schleswig-Holstein Lindenheim is relatively 'close' to the 'Lindaoorden'(Linderödsĺsen) in southern Sweden.


Yeah, I can imagine they couldn't find Lindahem again, LOL.


.



#6516    Abramelin

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 01:06 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 05 October 2011 - 06:11 PM, said:

I discussed Lindahem... a place that was never found again after a stormflood. Well, I found it, and it was in Germany, and there was a legend around that German place, and it said it had vanished...

Buxtehude (not Budehuxte as far as I know)... hmm.. I was thinking about Baduhenna http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baduhenna and switch -a- for -u- so you will get Buda-henna. I actually made that error often when I was googling something about Baduhenna (secret forest of the Goddess Badu).

Lydasburch = Leidscheburg

Katsburg =  Kassel... could be.

All the other ones you mentioned we did indeed discuss.

But not Lumkamakia; I have no idea.

Like that woman, Gosa Makonta.

Sorry, I dont have much time now.


Menno, you suggested in an earlier post: "Katsburch - Kassel".

No doubt you based that on this:

The city's name is derived from the ancient Castellum Cattorum, a castle of the Chatti, a German tribe that had lived in the area since Roman times.

Kassel was first mentioned in 913 AD as the place where two deeds were signed by King Conrad I. The place was called Chasella and was a fortification at a bridge crossing the Fulda river. A deed from 1189 certifies that Kassel had city rights, but the date when they were granted is not known
.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassel


#6517    The Puzzler

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 03:16 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 08 October 2011 - 12:05 PM, said:

No, the Vikings that were called Magi were those who travelled through the North Sea, to the south and into the Med.
Those that went east/south got a different name from the Arabs.

And the reason they were called 'fire worshippers' is because of the experience of the Muslem Arabs with the Farsi, who were indeed fire worshippers and who they had been in contact with. And to call someone a 'fire worshipper' was similar to us nowadays calling someone else a Neanderthal.

The Vikings were called Magi because they were magicians. I don't know why you say they were called fire-worshippers by so and so because of so and so or how they know that, I didn't catch any link... but it's pretty reasonable to suggest they would have indeed been seen as magicians.

Magi (Latin plural of magus; Ancient Greek μάγος (magos); Old Persian �������� (maguš) (Modern Persian مغ (mogh)); Arabic مجوس; English singular magian, mage, magus, magusian, magusaean) is a term, used since at least the 4th century BC, to denote a follower of Zoroaster, or rather, a follower of what the Hellenistic world associated Zoroaster with, which was – in the main – the ability to read the stars, and manipulate the fate that the stars foretold. The meaning prior to Hellenistic period is uncertain.

Odin's the biggest magician of them all. But it seems that it was mostly women doing the wizardry or ancient shamanism.

While a kind of priesthood seems to have existed, it never took on the professional and semi-hereditary character of the Celtic druidical class. This was because the shamanistic tradition was maintained by women, the Völvas.
http://en.wikipedia....Norse_mythology

A völva or vǫlva (Icelandic and Old Norse; plural völur, vǫlur, sometimes anglicized vala; also spákona or spćkona) is a shamanic seeress in Norse paganism, and a recurring motif in Norse mythology.
http://en.wikipedia....org/wiki/Völva

The völur were referred to by many names. The Old Norse word vǫlva means "wand carrier" or "carrier of a magic staff",[1] and it continues Proto-Germanic *walwōn, which is derived from a word for "wand" (Old Norse vǫlr).[2] Vala, on the other hand, is a literary form based on Völva.[2]

A spákona or spćkona (with an Old English cognate, spćwīfe) is a "prophetess", from the Old Norse word spá or spć referring to prophesying, continuing Proto-Germanic *spah- and the Proto-Indo-European root *(s)peḱ and consequently related to Latin speccio ("sees") and Sanskrit spáçati and páçyati ("sees", etc.).[3]

A practitioner of seiđr is a seiđkona (female) or a seiđmađr (male).


SEERESS, PROPHETESS, WAND CARRIER, CARRIER OF MAGIC STAFF - original word for WAND.

They are Magi, which by then the word means MAGICIAN.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#6518    The Puzzler

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 03:32 PM

View Postgranpa, on 08 October 2011 - 04:27 AM, said:

lucifer (venus) is a false sun god.

like the sun he rises in the east 'bringing light'.

but he is not the true sun.
I actually wrote a long response here but then for some unknown reason my computer turned off...it was getting off topic anyway.

But I did learn alot about the Morning Star.

Because the planet Venus is an inferior planet, meaning that its orbit lies between the orbit of the Earth and the Sun, it can never rise high in the sky at night as seen from Earth. It can be seen in the eastern morning sky for an hour or so before the Sun rises, and in the western evening sky for an hour or so after the Sun sets, but never during the dark of midnight.

It is the brightest object in the sky after the Sun and the Moon. As bright and as brilliant as it is, ancient people did not understand why they could not see it at midnight like the outer planets, or during midday, like the Sun and Moon. It outshines the planets Saturn and Jupiter, which do last all night, but it soon disappears. Canaanite mythology has a story of an unsuccessful attempt by Athtar, the Morning Star pictured as a god, to take over the throne of Baal.

Sounds somewhat like the Phaethon myth. The Greeks thought Venus was 2 stars, sons of the Dawn, Eos, one of these would be Phaethon - when Phaethon fell, it's the same incident as when the Morning Star 'fell' or imo like what you say, it was downcast as a false God, because the Phaethon myth is like that, a false Sun falls.

The Babylonians knew it was 1 star since 1581BC and termed it Bright Queen of the Sky. The Greeks thought it 2 stars, right down until the 5th century BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus
That explains alot.

-----------------

One other thing on that, I think teh throwing of Astyanax, son of Hector of Troy, from the walls of Troy is some kind of allegory for it. Astyanax sounds like a word learning to star, aster and such the Greeks used. Hec-tor - maybe even magic mountain his name could mean. Heka (magic - hex) tor (mount). A magic mountain, why not? Sounds logical to me. But many things sound logical to me...

Edited by The Puzzler, 08 October 2011 - 03:43 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#6519    Abramelin

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 04:02 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 08 October 2011 - 03:16 PM, said:

The Vikings were called Magi because they were magicians. I don't know why you say they were called fire-worshippers by so and so because of so and so or how they know that, I didn't catch any link... but it's pretty reasonable to suggest they would have indeed been seen as magicians.

Magi (Latin plural of magus; Ancient Greek μάγος (magos); Old Persian �������� (maguš) (Modern Persian مغ (mogh)); Arabic مجوس; English singular magian, mage, magus, magusian, magusaean) is a term, used since at least the 4th century BC, to denote a follower of Zoroaster, or rather, a follower of what the Hellenistic world associated Zoroaster with, which was – in the main – the ability to read the stars, and manipulate the fate that the stars foretold. The meaning prior to Hellenistic period is uncertain.

Odin's the biggest magician of them all. But it seems that it was mostly women doing the wizardry or ancient shamanism.

While a kind of priesthood seems to have existed, it never took on the professional and semi-hereditary character of the Celtic druidical class. This was because the shamanistic tradition was maintained by women, the Völvas.
http://en.wikipedia....Norse_mythology

A völva or vǫlva (Icelandic and Old Norse; plural völur, vǫlur, sometimes anglicized vala; also spákona or spćkona) is a shamanic seeress in Norse paganism, and a recurring motif in Norse mythology.
http://en.wikipedia....org/wiki/Völva

The völur were referred to by many names. The Old Norse word vǫlva means "wand carrier" or "carrier of a magic staff",[1] and it continues Proto-Germanic *walwōn, which is derived from a word for "wand" (Old Norse vǫlr).[2] Vala, on the other hand, is a literary form based on Völva.[2]

A spákona or spćkona (with an Old English cognate, spćwīfe) is a "prophetess", from the Old Norse word spá or spć referring to prophesying, continuing Proto-Germanic *spah- and the Proto-Indo-European root *(s)peḱ and consequently related to Latin speccio ("sees") and Sanskrit spáçati and páçyati ("sees", etc.).[3]

A practitioner of seiđr is a seiđkona (female) or a seiđmađr (male).


SEERESS, PROPHETESS, WAND CARRIER, CARRIER OF MAGIC STAFF - original word for WAND.

They are Magi, which by then the word means MAGICIAN.

It's the Arabs who said they called them "Magi" because they saw these Vikings as 'fire worshippers'. Not by deduction, no, they did call them Magi because of the fire-worshipping, and 'fire worshippers' was a Muslem-Arab nickname for people with a 'primitive religion' (= not from 'the Book', like Jews, Christians and Muslims).


I posted a link to a pdf that explained this, and I will try to find the post and link again.


+++++++++++


EDIT:

Here it is (no pdf), Post 6017, page 402:

http://www.unexplain...=184645&st=6015


In France and Sicily, the Vikings were known as Normans. An elite guard of the Byzantine emperors, composed of eastern Scandinavians, was known as Varangians, but that term never came into widespread use outside the region. In al-Andalus, or Islamic Spain, they were known as al-majus, or "fire-worshippers," a pejorative reference to their paganism.

http://www.nordicway...in the East.htm

.

Edited by Abramelin, 08 October 2011 - 04:13 PM.


#6520    The Puzzler

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 04:28 PM

You said: In al-Andalus, or Islamic Spain, they were known as al-majus, or "fire-worshippers," a pejorative reference to their paganism.

Here is what the Majus are.

Majūs (Arabic and Persian: مجوس, pl. majūsī) was originally a term meaning Zoroastrians[1] (and specifically, Zoroastrian priests). It was a technical term, meaning magus,[2][3] and like its synonym gabr (of uncertain etymology) originally had no pejorative implications.[4]

In al-Andalus the pagan non-Christian population were called majus and could either have the status of mozarab or of majus.

In the 1980s, majus was part of Iraqi propaganda vocabulary of the Iran–Iraq War to refer to Iranians in general. "By referring to the Iranians in these documents as majus, the security apparatus [implied] that the Iranians [were] not sincere Muslims, but rather covertly practice their pre-Islamic beliefs. Thus, in their eyes, Iraq’s war took on the dimensions of not only a struggle for Arab nationalism, but also a campaign in the name of Islam."[5]

The term majus is distinct from Arabic kafir "unbeliever". Persian gabr is no longer synonymous with majus.


The site you gave is an opinion and fire worshippers is in " inverted commas, it's just someone else's term.

They were majus because they were pagan non-Christians - like Zoroastrians or more specifically Z. priests, who are the Magi anyway, practicers of magic and astrology.


WHat did this have to do with anything anyway..?

You think these are the Magyar? or that Vikings could be termed Magi/Magyar so it could be the Vikings they are referring to as coming in as Magyar..?

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#6521    The Puzzler

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 04:58 PM

About your Godfrid.
Godfrid, Godafrid, Gudfrid, or Gottfrid (murdered June 885) was a Danish Viking leader of the late ninth century. He had probably been with the Great Heathen Army, descended on the continent, and became a vassal of the emperor Charles the Fat, controlling most of Frisia between 882 and 885
http://en.wikipedia...._Duke_of_Frisia

Or was it this one? Godfrid Haraldsson (c. 820 - c. 856) was the son of the Danish king Harald Klak. Even earlier than the one above.

The first mentions of the numerals in the West are found in the Codex Vigilanus of 976.[13] From the 980s, Gerbert of Aurillac (later, Pope Sylvester II) used his position to spread knowledge of the numerals in Europe. Gerbert studied in Barcelona in his youth. He was known to have requested mathematical treatises concerning the astrolabe from Lupitus of Barcelona after he had returned to France.
http://en.wikipedia....Arabic_numerals

Even if you want to think it may be Godfrid, I will point out that Godfrid lived 100 years before the said introduction of Arabic numerals into Europe itself.

So, even though what you say sounds more logical, that Godfrid, who is this Duke of Frisia - I don't see him being a sea-king though, but we don't really know if Witkening is sea-King - is around before the numerals were, so how he would have introduced them is beyond me, if you want to stick to trying to fit it within a later date frame.

Obviously this is very contradictory to my own ideas but I'm accepting the numerals do seem to have come into Europe no earlier than that (I have no answer for that in the OLB, a few ideas though) - but challenging you on your assumption it was this Godfrid who introduced them.

Edited by The Puzzler, 08 October 2011 - 05:08 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#6522    Abramelin

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 05:06 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 08 October 2011 - 04:28 PM, said:

You said: In al-Andalus, or Islamic Spain, they were known as al-majus, or "fire-worshippers," a pejorative reference to their paganism.

Here is what the Majus are.

Majūs (Arabic and Persian: مجوس, pl. majūsī) was originally a term meaning Zoroastrians[1] (and specifically, Zoroastrian priests). It was a technical term, meaning magus,[2][3] and like its synonym gabr (of uncertain etymology) originally had no pejorative implications.[4]

In al-Andalus the pagan non-Christian population were called majus and could either have the status of mozarab or of majus.

In the 1980s, majus was part of Iraqi propaganda vocabulary of the Iran–Iraq War to refer to Iranians in general. "By referring to the Iranians in these documents as majus, the security apparatus [implied] that the Iranians [were] not sincere Muslims, but rather covertly practice their pre-Islamic beliefs. Thus, in their eyes, Iraq’s war took on the dimensions of not only a struggle for Arab nationalism, but also a campaign in the name of Islam."[5]

The term majus is distinct from Arabic kafir "unbeliever". Persian gabr is no longer synonymous with majus.


The site you gave is an opinion and fire worshippers is in " inverted commas, it's just someone else's term.

They were majus because they were pagan non-Christians - like Zoroastrians or more specifically Z. priests, who are the Magi anyway, practicers of magic and astrology.


WHat did this have to do with anything anyway..?

You think these are the Magyar? or that Vikings could be termed Magi/Magyar so it could be the Vikings they are referring to as coming in as Magyar..?

I only gave you one quote from that old post so you'd know where to look.

However, it's not just the opinion of one person; here is what I also posted:


Curiously, the Muslims called the Vikings al-madjus, “the Magi”, because they thought they were fire-worshippers like the Persian Zoroastrians. It conjures up images of shiploads of blond rune wizards sweeping down on Muslim towns with loud galdr singing and all kinds of runic hoodoo. They slaughtered the Muslims and burnt down mosques, in true Viking fashion.

http://ghostofelberr...allah-met-odin/


And the next pdf has lots to say about these Viking/Magi (enter "Madjus" in the search tool of the pdf / I can't copy from that pdf):

Posted Image

http://www.preterhum...d/histwiz 1.pdf


And what does all this have to do with the Magi and Magyar?

Well, like I have said a couple of times, several people served several purposes in the OLB (like those Gypsies), and the Vikings most likely did too.


#6523    Abramelin

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 05:16 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 08 October 2011 - 04:58 PM, said:

About your Godfrid.
Godfrid, Godafrid, Gudfrid, or Gottfrid (murdered June 885) was a Danish Viking leader of the late ninth century. He had probably been with the Great Heathen Army, descended on the continent, and became a vassal of the emperor Charles the Fat, controlling most of Frisia between 882 and 885
http://en.wikipedia...._Duke_of_Frisia

Well, I assume that's who you mean unless another one slipped in on me.

The first mentions of the numerals in the West are found in the Codex Vigilanus of 976.[13] From the 980s, Gerbert of Aurillac (later, Pope Sylvester II) used his position to spread knowledge of the numerals in Europe. Gerbert studied in Barcelona in his youth. He was known to have requested mathematical treatises concerning the astrolabe from Lupitus of Barcelona after he had returned to France.
http://en.wikipedia....Arabic_numerals

Even if you want to think it may be Godfrid, I will point out that Godfrid lived 100 years before the said introduction of Arabic numerals into Europe itself.

So, even though what you say sounds more logical, that Godfrid, who is this Duke of Frisia - I don't see him being a sea-king though, but we don't really know if Witkening is sea-King - is around before the numerals were, so how he would have introduced them is beyond me, if you want to stick to trying to fit it within a later date frame.

Obviously this is very contradictory to my own ideas but I'm accepting the numerals do seem to have come into Europe no earlier than that (I have no answer for that in the OLB, a few ideas though) - but challenging you on your assumption it was this Godfrid who introduced them.

Yes, oficially those numerals were introduced after the death of Godfried.

But now I am doubting if I posted it, but I read somewhere that some guy who became Pope later on (Sylvester??) already knew the Muslims in southern Spain were using these (Indian) numerals centuries before they were officially introduced in the rest of Europe.

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And the first Viking commander to raid the coasts of Frisia with 200 longboats was called "Godfried the Viking, aka Godfried the Seaking". I know I posted a link to a Dutch Wiki page that said exactly that.

"... but we don't really know if Witkening is sea-King"

That doesn't matter; what matters is how this guy was called/titled in the OLB:

Ther Witkêning thaet is Sêkêning, Godfrêiath thene alda heth thêr asvndergana telnomar fon mâkad fâr stand aend rvnskrift bêde.

The Witkoning—that is, the Sea-king Godfried the Old—made separate numbers for the set hand and for the runic hand.


"Witkening", and later on in the OLB as "Witking" is nothing but a combination of Frisian "Witsing" (=Viking) and Anglo-Saxon Wicing (=Viking). Maybe created in an attempt to sound as the original word...


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Edited by Abramelin, 08 October 2011 - 05:35 PM.


#6524    Abramelin

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 06:05 PM

Recognizing that arithmetic with Hindu-Arabic numerals is simpler and more efficient than with Roman numerals, Fibonacci traveled throughout the Mediterranean world to study under the leading Arab mathematicians of the time. Leonardo returned from his travels around 1200. In 1202, at age 32, he published what he had learned in Liber Abaci (Book of Abacus or Book of Calculation), and thereby popularized Hindu-Arabic numerals in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia....eonardo_of_Pisa


Liber Abaci was among the first Western books to describe Arabic numerals, the first being the Codex Vigilanus completed in 976; another pivotal work followed by Pope Silvester II in 999. By addressing tradesmen and academics, it began to convince the public of the superiority of the new numerals.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Liber_Abaci


The Codex contains, among other pieces of useful information, the first mention and representation of Arabic numerals (save zero) in the West. They were introduced by the Moors into Spain around 900.

http://en.wikipedia....Codex_Vigilanus


"They were introduced by the Moors into Spain around 900"

Now I do not know if someone thought, let's say, 862 AD is "around 900", or that is really isn't exactly known.

Something about Viking numerals:

Runes used as numerals

Although it is very uncommon, on occasion the Vikings would use the runic letters to stand for a numeral. I was only able to find a couple of inscriptions that used this practice, and here they appear to just be abbreviating the word for the number and representing it by its first letter. This would be like an English speaker writing numbers as O=1, T=2, TH=3, Fo=4, Fi=5, Si=6, Se=7, E=8, N=9 etc.:


http://www.vikingans...reckoning.shtml


+++++++++

If what we now call 'Arabic numerals' were around in Europe 3000 years before the moment they were introduced according to official history, wouldn't that have influenced mathematics, algebra, and so on in a revolutionary way?

That alone makes me have serious doubts about that claim in the OLB.



+++++++++

"They were introduced by the Moors into Spain around 900"

Could the Vikings have learned of the Arabic numerals during their first attacks on southern Spain??


Al-Khwārizmī's contributions to mathematics, geography, astronomy, and cartography established the basis for innovation in algebra and trigonometry. His systematic approach to solving linear and quadratic equations led to algebra, a word derived from the title of his 830 book on the subject, "The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing" (al-Kitab al-mukhtasar fi hisab al-jabr wa'l-muqabalaالكتاب المختصر في حساب الجبر والمقابلة).

On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals written about 825, was principally responsible for spreading the Indian system of numeration throughout the Middle East and Europe. It was translated into Latin as Algoritmi de numero Indorum. Al-Khwārizmī, rendered as (Latin) Algoritmi, led to the term "algorithm".


http://en.wikipedia....sa_al-Khwarizmi


And then this:

In 711 CE, the now Islamic Moors conquered Visigothic Christian Hispania. Their general, Tariq ibn-Ziyad, brought most of Iberia under Islamic rule in an eight-year campaign. They moved northeast across the Pyrenees Mountains, but were defeated by the Frank Charles Martel at the Battle of Poitiers in 732 CE.

The Moorish state fell into civil conflict in the 750s. The Moors ruled in North Africa and in most of the Iberian peninsula for several decades. They were resisted in areas in the northwest (such as Asturias, where they were defeated at the battle of Covadonga) and the largely Basque regions in the Pyrenees. Though the number of Moor colonists was small, many native Iberian inhabitants converted to Islam. According to Ronald Segal, by 1200 CE, some 5.6 million of Iberia's 7 million inhabitants, nearly all native inhabitants, were Muslim


http://upload.wikime...reconquista.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors


I think it's really possible.


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Edited by Abramelin, 08 October 2011 - 06:59 PM.


#6525    Abramelin

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 08:07 PM

-1- Al-Khwārizmī's "On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals" written about 825 AD;

-2- The first attack of the Vikings on Moorish Spain took place at 845 AD;

-3- Godfried the Seaking died (was murdered) in 885;

-4-The Thirteenth Caliphate - Iberia -  was among the most if not simply the most advanced example of Muslim civilization in history (including modern times, I'd like to add);

-5- The first person to publish "The oera Linda Book" was Ottema, and it was this same Ottema who had noticed that the numerals as introduced by the OLB Godfreyath the Witking were very similar to what he saw in a Dutch library (The Royal Library/"De Koninklijke Bibliotheek" in The Hague), ie. on a copy of a plate from the Alhambra (Granada).


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Edited by Abramelin, 08 October 2011 - 08:14 PM.