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"Christian" is a useless term


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#121    Frank Merton

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 06:42 AM

You say, "I don't see it like this," and then go on to reinforce what I said.  Sometimes I have to think you disagree just to disagree and palaver.


#122    Mr Walker

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 06:50 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 31 October 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

You say, "I don't see it like this," and then go on to reinforce what I said.  Sometimes I have to think you disagree just to disagree and palaver.
Sorry I should have highlighted the bit I meant. I do not see Christianity as saying" all sins are equal" either in the eyes of god, or in the eyes of man.  I do like a good argument but I don't pick them deliberately. I get enough just by being myself and stating my views on things..

Edited by Mr Walker, 31 October 2013 - 06:51 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#123    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 06:06 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 31 October 2013 - 02:05 AM, said:

Different eras had different focuses. For example, a coworker of mine I once worked with was Indian. The first time she met her husband was the day they got married. Her parents had arranged the marriage, and they'd been together happily for 15 years. Did she get extremely lucky to be partnered with her soulmate? Or did they just work hard together? Meanwhile, in Hollywood we have celebrities marry and divorce 72 hours later.

Uh, meanwhile in India we have also have people who are thoroughly unhappy with the marriage that has been arranged for them and to which very large barriers have been put in place for escaping it.  I think you're married, do you think that you'd be thoroughly content and think you have a good marriage with just any person as long as you were both sufficiently 'other-focused'?  Aren't there other factors in play besides being focused on the other person and aren't most of those factors properly deemed 'me-focused'?  I agree with you for the most part, excessive selfishness spells doom and unhappiness for the continuation of most relationships, but the very core of why one is even in a relationship I think has a large 'me-focus'.  Or to put it another way, assuming there isn't an imbalance in the 'other-focus' between a couple (I wouldn't blame someone other-focused from wanting to divorce someone who is 'me-focused' if they are snorting coke and playing video games all day), what would be factors that you think would justify a divorce?  Is something like, "I don't love her anymore and haven't for a long time, and at some point it becomes dishonest to pretend otherwise", a valid reason?

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The link I provided to Scowl (above) shows some of the issues confronting the modern me-generation.

I didn't read that link as saying much about how 'me-focused' this generation is, it says that they have unreasonably high expectations which make them unhappy, and the article seems to acknowledge that this is partly because of how they have been raised to have apparently too much self-esteem and is not necessarily because of their extreme selfishness.  I may have missed it, but I didn't see anything about how they are less focused on others; focusing on others and having unrealistic expectations about your career/life are not exclusive or necessarily even in opposition.

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#124    scowl

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:08 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 31 October 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

That's not how sin works.

Sure it is. Jesus forgives sins.

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Assuming she went into her first marriage with the intention of making it a lifelong union (a big assumption, considering you've said she got married to have sex) then when she got divorced she became an adulteress, at the same time her ex-husband became an adulterer.

Divorced people aren't adulterers.

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Not to the extent that our current society has. An unemployed adult playing computer games all day until that lifestyle is threatened and do he empties his wife's bank accounts and runs off. That's becoming par for the course these days.

Is it? That's the only time I've heard of it happening. Most people I know are happily married. In fact three of the people who had these horrible divorces have been happily married now for years.

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Fact is that society has become increasingly self-centred over the last decades.

I think Nazi Germany was a somewhat more self-centered society than today's societies. America has become far more accepting of different people in recent decades.

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And if they were "other-person focused" the fact they changed should not have mattered. Though naturally a relationship is a two-way street, so both should have been other-person focused.  The coworker whose wife developed a spending addiction seems workable if both worked at it. Give the husband sole control of household finances, budget for a psychologist to regularly visit.

He did that. Put her on an allowance. That's what resulted in the divorce. He didn't want to be her daddy.

My two guesses is that some people don't want to face problems and don't really care what the other person thinks about them.

Unemployed and playing video games all day? Not a problem.

Not interested in outdoor activities any more? What's wrong with that? You married me so you could go camping?

Spending more money than what's coming in? We'll get better jobs eventually and pay off the cards.

I doubt this is a recent phenomenon.


#125    Paranoid Android

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 08:20 AM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 31 October 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

Uh, meanwhile in India we have also have people who are thoroughly unhappy with the marriage that has been arranged for them and to which very large barriers have been put in place for escaping it.
I agree that arranged marriages aren't perfect. Neither am I saying India is filled with happy content married folk. But the coworker I used as an example, then either she was lying (possible, would you tell every coworker you've ever worked with that your relationship sucked), or she lucked the jackpot and was paired with her soulmate, or it confirms my belief that any two people can make a relationship work, if they both work on it. Which I suppose segues into your next question:


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  I think you're married, do you think that you'd be thoroughly content and think you have a good marriage with just any person as long as you were both sufficiently 'other-focused'?
Yes, I sincerely believe any two people can make a successful relationship, if they both work on it.


Quote

  Aren't there other factors in play besides being focused on the other person and aren't most of those factors properly deemed 'me-focused'?  I agree with you for the most part, excessive selfishness spells doom and unhappiness for the continuation of most relationships, but the very core of why one is even in a relationship I think has a large 'me-focus'.  Or to put it another way, assuming there isn't an imbalance in the 'other-focus' between a couple (I wouldn't blame someone other-focused from wanting to divorce someone who is 'me-focused' if they are snorting coke and playing video games all day), what would be factors that you think would justify a divorce?  Is something like, "I don't love her anymore and haven't for a long time, and at some point it becomes dishonest to pretend otherwise", a valid reason?
Personally, I don't believe there should be any valid reason for divorce. But that's an idealist statement made for a perfect world. And this is not a perfect world. In my opinion saying "I don't love you anymore" is sufficient reason to see a marriage counsellor, NOT divorce (though ignoring the second half of that statement is equally wrong - admit that you aren't getting what you want out of the relationship, and then work!). In fact, that reason of "I don't love you anymore" is the very epitome of self.  But everyone has different standards, and it's up to them to decide whether it's a valid reason.


Quote

I didn't read that link as saying much about how 'me-focused' this generation is, it says that they have unreasonably high expectations which make them unhappy, and the article seems to acknowledge that this is partly because of how they have been raised to have apparently too much self-esteem and is not necessarily because of their extreme selfishness.  I may have missed it, but I didn't see anything about how they are less focused on others; focusing on others and having unrealistic expectations about your career/life are not exclusive or necessarily even in opposition.
It's not explicit, but a key point was the idea of "entitlement". The hypothetical Lucy was brought up being told she is special, she deserves success, everything she wants she deserves and can get. As a result, as she moves into the workforce she's unhappy. Why? Because she's not getting everything she wants. She's brought up with the mentality of (to quote Captain Hook from the film Hook) "me me me me, mine mine mine mine, now now now now". This is, to me, the very essence of selfishness that is driving the me-generation.

Hope that clarifies :)

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#126    Paranoid Android

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 08:42 AM

View Postscowl, on 31 October 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:



Sure it is. Jesus forgives sins.
Only when accompanied by repentance. Attempting to loophole out of it by getting a piece of government paper isn't a sign of repentance. Saying "better to sin four times then ever weekend" doesn't sound very repentant either. Ignoring the effect of her sin on others, also not very repentant.

As said, she has a very warped sense of sin.


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Divorced people aren't adulterers.
If you believe in Jesus' teachings you believe that Jesus taught that divorce led a spouse to become an adulterer. You may not agree with that, but your Christian friend must believe otherwise if she is a Christian.


Quote

Is it? That's the only time I've heard of it happening. Most people I know are happily married. In fact three of the people who had these horrible divorces have been happily married now for years.
Not that exact situation, but things like it. I wasn't meaning to say every second marriage involves someone rorting their partner and running off, but it's far more common today than in the past.


Quote

I think Nazi Germany was a somewhat more self-centered society than today's societies. America has become far more accepting of different people in recent decades.
Intolerance is not selfishness, nor vice versa.


Quote

He did that. Put her on an allowance. That's what resulted in the divorce. He didn't want to be her daddy.
Uh huh, so he didn't want to be her daddy, so left. How exactly is this a refutation of my claims on selfishness. Sounds more like it supports me - it was no longer convenient so he left rather than deal with it.


Quote

My two guesses is that some people don't want to face problems and don't really care what the other person thinks about them.

Unemployed and playing video games all day? Not a problem.

Not interested in outdoor activities any more? What's wrong with that? You married me so you could go camping?

Spending more money than what's coming in? We'll get better jobs eventually and pay off the cards.

I doubt this is a recent phenomenon.
But the response to those situations is new.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 01 November 2013 - 08:45 AM.

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