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Echo Flight


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#736    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 04:17 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 18 August 2011 - 03:47 AM, said:

People can say "what they saw" until they are blue in the face. It does not change the fact that the wring paths did not exist, and the fault as has been described simply physically cannot happen. It is as simple as that.

Ever seen a person return something to a shop broken and said "I never touched it" Yet the tape on the box is ripped off, and all the seals broken? This is that very same mysterious force at work.


That makes no sense either.  Are you saying that nothing happened at all?  Clearly something did happen, though, because we know that the missiles did shut down.

http://www.ufohastin...e-1960s-and-70s



We know that UFOs were tracked on radar at Malmstron and jet interceptors were sent up against this evasive and high-speed targets, which were moving much faster than any jets known at the time, even the SR-71 Blackbirds.

There are probably a lot more documents about this that have never been declassified.  I certainly did not believe James Carlson's assertion that he had the full declassified record of this incident--no way.

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#737    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 04:22 AM

In Leslie Kean's book, there are reports of UFOs opening the concrete doors on the missile silos, which weigh 20 tons.  I don't know how this is possible but something is going on here.  I know that I've read similar reports from other sources:

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

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#738    psyche101

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 04:42 AM

View PostTheMcGuffin, on 18 August 2011 - 04:17 AM, said:

That makes no sense either.  Are you saying that nothing happened at all?  Clearly something did happen, though, because we know that the missiles did shut down.

http://www.ufohastin...e-1960s-and-70s

I did not say that, I said the fault cannot happen as described. Not sure how a man of your abilities did not pick that up!

Again with my descriptor, the fault could not be generated by a UFO hovering over a missile to have the effect as described by the Bobs. Just cannot happen.

View PostTheMcGuffin, on 18 August 2011 - 04:17 AM, said:

We know that UFOs were tracked on radar at Malmstron and jet interceptors were sent up against this evasive and high-speed targets, which were moving much faster than any jets known at the time, even the SR-71 Blackbirds.

Perhaps, but this has naught to do with the fact the the wires this fault had to travel were never installed. And these instances remain UFO's. Which means they could really be anything, and not related to site faults in any way.

View PostTheMcGuffin, on 18 August 2011 - 04:17 AM, said:

There are probably a lot more documents about this that have never been declassified.  I certainly did not believe James Carlson's assertion that he had the full declassified record of this incident--no way.

Possible, although I do not see why they would remain classified to this day unless there is a communications protocol that has been kept under wraps.

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#739    psyche101

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 04:47 AM

View PostTheMcGuffin, on 18 August 2011 - 04:22 AM, said:

In Leslie Kean's book, there are reports of UFOs opening the concrete doors on the missile silos, which weigh 20 tons.  I don't know how this is possible but something is going on here.  I know that I've read similar reports from other sources:

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false


I honestly do not know what to think of Leslie Kean. She tries to make out that she is distanced from the ET argument, but it is plainly obvious that this is not the case. I find this confuses me into a skeptical viewpoint of her work.

Concrete doors! Well I suppose a very very strong magnet would be an idea, and I would bet rags to riches that the concrete is steel reinforced, however, I would be more looking for a hack. Such big doors I think would likely have motors opening them. I do not think such monstrosities would be handled manually. Where we have tech, we have glitches, which for some reason reminds me of the older term "gremlins" in the machines.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#740    booNyzarC

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 05:06 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 18 August 2011 - 04:47 AM, said:

I honestly do not know what to think of Leslie Kean. She tries to make out that she is distanced from the ET argument, but it is plainly obvious that this is not the case. I find this confuses me into a skeptical viewpoint of her work.

Concrete doors! Well I suppose a very very strong magnet would be an idea, and I would bet rags to riches that the concrete is steel reinforced, however, I would be more looking for a hack. Such big doors I think would likely have motors opening them. I do not think such monstrosities would be handled manually. Where we have tech, we have glitches, which for some reason reminds me of the older term "gremlins" in the machines.
Keep in mind that this snippet from Chapter 14 of her book, titled France and the UFO Question, was actually written by Jean-Jacques Velasco.  I haven't been able to find corroboration for this tale anywhere yet either.  I'm not saying that it didn't happen, just that I haven't been able to find anything to corroborate it so far.

One of the parts that I find curiously dubious is that the fence was open...  why would an ET piloted UFO open the fence?  It doesn't really make sense.  But then, that is part and parcel for this business isn't it?


#741    psyche101

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 05:09 AM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 18 August 2011 - 05:06 AM, said:

Keep in mind that this snippet from Chapter 14 of her book, titled France and the UFO Question, was actually written by Jean-Jacques Velasco.  I haven't been able to find corroboration for this tale anywhere yet either.  I'm not saying that it didn't happen, just that I haven't been able to find anything to corroborate it so far.

One of the parts that I find curiously dubious is that the fence was open...  why would an ET piloted UFO open the fence?  It doesn't really make sense.  But then, that is part and parcel for this business isn't it?


Have you seen her facebook page?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#742    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 05:13 AM

According to this history of the construction of Minuteman 1 silos in South Dakota, the Hardened Intersite Cable System (HICS) that connected the whole system was 4-8 feet underground, while the launch control facilities were 40-80 feet underground:


"Army Corps representatives negotiated with several hundred more property owners for easements for the underground HICS connecting the LFs and LCFs. These cables, installed four to eight feet below ground and used to transmit data between missile sites, required a temporary construction easement of thirty-five feet in width for approximately 1,732 miles between all 165 sites. After construction was complete, the government obtained a permanent easement for a path sixteen and one-half feet wide.xii Following installation of the HICS, landowners could return to using the land above the cable for normal ranching or agricultural activities."


http://www.nps.gov/m...I Chapter 3.pdf

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#743    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 05:43 AM

There is some discussion of this HICS underground cable system on the Missile Forums, although they never allow any mention of UFOs there:



"What did hardened underground cable system mean? Did they replace/upgrade all the cables between LCCs and LFs? I seem to remember when the wings were built the cables were simply buried wire cables and sometimes farmers would cut them. When I left Minot in 1972 CDB was something that was going to be the next upgrade after the Mod. We understood it would let the crews change targeting info from the LCC.


"All the cable systems were not just buried wires. The actual wiring was encased in a tube that was kept pressurized with air from compressors at the LCFs. If a cable was cut or something intruded into the casing there would be a cable pressure alarm.

Also, the A systems used redundant cables that ran to the LFs so if one was cut or destroyed there were others to keep connectivity."


http://www.missilefo...c.php?f=1&t=912

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#744    psyche101

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 05:48 AM

View PostTheMcGuffin, on 18 August 2011 - 05:13 AM, said:

According to this history of the construction of Minuteman 1 silos in South Dakota, the Hardened Intersite Cable System (HICS) that connected the whole system was 4-8 feet underground, while the launch control facilities were 40-80 feet underground:


"Army Corps representatives negotiated with several hundred more property owners for easements for the underground HICS connecting the LFs and LCFs. These cables, installed four to eight feet below ground and used to transmit data between missile sites, required a temporary construction easement of thirty-five feet in width for approximately 1,732 miles between all 165 sites. After construction was complete, the government obtained a permanent easement for a path sixteen and one-half feet wide.xii Following installation of the HICS, landowners could return to using the land above the cable for normal ranching or agricultural activities."


http://www.nps.gov/m...I Chapter 3.pdf


That sounds a lot more like a real installation. I perhaps did not have the full story earlier when a claim was made that cables were underground 60 feet. They might drop vertically to such a location, but I cannot imagine a cable run being buried 60 feet deep. It would have to be extraordinary circumstances.

Now that I think of it, one recent post said the cables were triple shielded didn't it? Wasn't cable shielding a recommendation from the final report?

Edited by psyche101, 18 August 2011 - 06:06 AM.

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#745    psyche101

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 05:59 AM

View PostTheMcGuffin, on 18 August 2011 - 05:43 AM, said:

There is some discussion of this HICS underground cable system on the Missile Forums, although they never allow any mention of UFOs there:



"What did hardened underground cable system mean? Did they replace/upgrade all the cables between LCCs and LFs? I seem to remember when the wings were built the cables were simply buried wire cables and sometimes farmers would cut them. When I left Minot in 1972 CDB was something that was going to be the next upgrade after the Mod. We understood it would let the crews change targeting info from the LCC.


"All the cable systems were not just buried wires. The actual wiring was encased in a tube that was kept pressurized with air from compressors at the LCFs. If a cable was cut or something intruded into the casing there would be a cable pressure alarm.

Also, the A systems used redundant cables that ran to the LFs so if one was cut or destroyed there were others to keep connectivity."


http://www.missilefo...c.php?f=1&t=912

hardened underground cable system translated to Oz speak is direct buried cabling system

I am not entirely sure of installation practices in general back in the 50's but I do know that for the last 3 decades few totally rely on "direct bury"cabling. Underground conduits not only provide mechanical protection, but they are a massive assistance where maintenance and installation is concerned. You cannot pull a cable say 500 feet (Not used to US terms, but this should explain my point) so you have a series of pits, these have lockable lids, so if the installation was pressurized (which is very unusual) they would have to be lockable GATIC pit lids. Contractors would have to be careful about sealing the conduits into the pits. Today we still "direct bury" it is quite common for cabling on the national grid and where it is an advantage to your installation - for instance ambient ground temperature lowers the cable temperature which gives the copper better current carrying properties. And of course, the cost saving as you are not buying kilometers of conduit, if your cable is not coming out again, it makes sense to direct bury in this situation. But in general, particularly control cables that will be upgraded/replaced/maintained at some point for sure will always be in a conduit. Same with buildings, you run conduits through the concrete slabs to get wires around the building so they can be withdrawn when upgrading/adding/maintenance. Redundant cabling is quite common as well, most installations will ask for as much as 40% redundancy. If a core in your cable fails, you just pick a redundant one and make downtime as little as possible.
Methods that are still in practice today, I guess if something isn't broken you do not fix it.

They do not allow UFO talk at missile forums at all? That's funny. I understand why, it is quite off topic, but it is still funny.

Edited by psyche101, 18 August 2011 - 06:08 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#746    Tim Hebert

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 06:24 AM

The cables were indeed pressurized and monitored.  Any loss or significant drop in pressure alerted the launch crews that either a cable was cut or punctured.  Cut cables did occur due to ranchers using a backhoe or heavy trenching tool.  One of the main issues was to detect the possibility of someone tapping into the communication lines and generating false commands.  A totally cut line could mean a sabotage attempt.  In cases of loss of pressure in the cable system, there was a specific flight security protocol that was put in place which required the security personnel to patrol the flight area.  In my day, all commands were sent encrypted through the lines, though we could also send clear text commands if the need occurred.

The HICS cables would have been buried at a depth that would have been fairly easy to expose for repair purposes, yet deep enough to discourage those digging for what ever reasons...more than likely this was one of the reasons for pressurizing the lines as a monitoring defense.

The depth of the LCCs depended upon the geological conditions of the area.  Sites SW of Great Falls were buried at a depth of around 40 feet.  This was due to the low water tables of the area as I do recall issues of hydrostatic pressure forcing water to drip into the sump pump area underneath the capsule.  Most of the sites that I pulled my alerts in were at far deeper depths:  Lima was 120 feet deep! and the rest of the 490th SMS LCCs were around 90 feet in depth.


#747    psyche101

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 06:45 AM

Thanks Tim, that would make sense, although I think these days you would just run a wire trace to see if something was broken, but in the interests of security, I can see now why they would be pressurized. Not common down here at least, I have been heavily involved in Military installations and perimeter security seems more paramount these days.
Digging cables up is still a problem, here in Australia we now have a service called "Dial before you dig" and they have good maps of cable routes, but it still happens from time to time. Major fibre to the Gold Coast was cut a few years back by accident. Took half the businesses on the Northern costal front out.

Always good to learn new things, thanks again.

Geology certainly can be a problem, sometimes you hit hard rock and you have no option but to scrape down as far as you can and encase the conduit in concrete.

One big reason people dig up cable is to sell the copper. Worth quite a bit at a scrap metal yard. Quite a few have died trying to retrieve live copper.

Edited by psyche101, 18 August 2011 - 06:45 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#748    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 08:16 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 18 August 2011 - 06:45 AM, said:

One big reason people dig up cable is to sell the copper. Worth quite a bit at a scrap metal yard. Quite a few have died trying to retrieve live copper.

From what I've read, that's also being done here since the Cold War ended and many of these older silos have been deactivated and demolished.  They still left quite a bit of cable in the ground but people are digging it up and selling it for scrap.

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#749    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 08:18 AM

I also read that the concrete doors over the silos weighed as much as 90-100 tons, so it would be no simple matter to open them.  Far from it.

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#750    booNyzarC

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 12:23 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 18 August 2011 - 05:09 AM, said:

Have you seen her facebook page?
I hadn't before, but I looked it up this morning.  She does seem to be full on with promotion still.  Many interviews and such.  I can't really blame her for that though.  The better her book does the better it is for her career overall.  And she has been into this subject for over a decade now.  She strikes me as someone genuinely interested in what she believes to be true.





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