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Troubling Doctrines For Christians


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#136    danielost

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:22 PM

View PostSherapy, on 23 March 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:



Thank you for your input Daniel. I have heard that In the Mormon faith you can get your dead relatives out of spirit prison.

No, we can give them a choice.  Spirit prison is not hell, paradise is not heavon.  They are just waiting room.  With teaching go on in spirit prison.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#137    Sherapy

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:26 PM

View Postdanielost, on 23 March 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

No, we can give them a choice.  Spirit prison is not hell, paradise is not heavon.  They are just waiting room.  With teaching go on in spirit prison.

A version of purgatory?




#138    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:17 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 23 March 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

The way I see it is that the standard Christian Muslim teaching about Hell or some other form of eternal punishment flies in the face of the teaching that God is Love.  They admit that God wants everyone to be saved, and then they find some way of asserting the mere humans can prevent God from getting what He wants.  It really is blasphemous when you think about it carefully.
You're reading the Bible like an action-adventure novel. That's fine, but once you start accusing Christians of blasphemy, you go over your head. Mind you, I like your posts because they make me think, study the Bible, and go deeper inside. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of time to answer all of your earnest questions. You assume that all Christians have the same take on the Bible, and that they are all in the same level of understanding and diligence, but in the end, it's up to the Holy Spirit to write His presence in one's heart. You cannot buy off God's providence, BUT there must be a reason why a Christian have this feverish inclination. Take St. Paul's story for an example. There are no accidents in a Christian's life.

Hell is to be far away from the "Unconditional Love" presence of Jesus Christ. "Unconditional Love" is not an emotion, it's a state of being. I believe it's the intrinsic nature of Jesus or Holy Spirit -- from what I have gathered. It is power, itself. While in the flesh, Jesus Christ was very much aware of this. Please read Mark 5:25-38. So yes, first of all you have to REALLY accept Jesus Christ as your savior to get closer to that Christian salvation, Heaven, being with Christ throughout eternity. It's a process, a pilgrim's progress, as in diligently studying the Bible, meditation, prayers, giving money to the poor, trying to detach yourself from this material world, being available to the Holy Spirit, being honest to yourself (not another lip service), and so on. Some have more faith than others to get "healed," and I mean this in its all-encompassing definition. I cannot stress this enough -- in the end, it's God's will, not our will, to carve His presence into our hearts (but there's a reason why we are inclined to follow or seek Jesus Christ).


Peace to you, Frank.  

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Distinguish between spin doctoring and truth. Keep in mind that truth is ALMOST impossible to figure out when it comes to ancient holy book.

#139    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 02:31 AM

Psalm 19:8
The precepts of the LORD are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the LORD are radiant, giving light to the eyes.

Psalm 19:10
They are more precious than gold, than much pure gold; they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the honeycomb.

Isaiah 5:13
Therefore my people will go into exile for lack of understanding; those of high rank will die of hunger and the common people will be parched with thirst.

John 7:37-38
On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.


https://www.youtube....ix3pVUX86yBWWzS  (playlist)

Distinguish between spin doctoring and truth. Keep in mind that truth is ALMOST impossible to figure out when it comes to ancient holy book.

#140    libstaK

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 03:52 AM

View Postbraveone2u, on 23 March 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

Hell is to be far away from the "Unconditional Love" presence of Jesus Christ. "Unconditional Love" is not an emotion, it's a state of being. I believe it's the intrinsic nature of Jesus or Holy Spirit -- from what I have gathered. It is power, itself. While in the flesh, Jesus Christ was very much aware of this. Please read Mark 5:25-38. So yes, first of all you have to REALLY accept Jesus Christ as your savior to get closer to that Christian salvation, Heaven, being with Christ throughout eternity. It's a process, a pilgrim's progress, as in diligently studying the Bible, meditation, prayers, giving money to the poor, trying to detach yourself from this material world, being available to the Holy Spirit, being honest to yourself (not another lip service), and so on. Some have more faith than others to get "healed," and I mean this in its all-encompassing definition. I cannot stress this enough -- in the end, it's God's will, not our will, to carve His presence into our hearts (but there's a reason why we are inclined to follow or seek Jesus Christ).

Peace to you, Frank.  
Well put, I think you said the highlighted in blue posts better than I have seen them put for a long while.

I think it is God's will to honour the freedom of will he provided us, he would have us with him if WE wish it.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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#141    danielost

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 04:20 AM

View PostSherapy, on 23 March 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:



A version of purgatory?

Yes.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#142    Frank Merton

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:21 AM

I am at heart an atheist, as the only "God" available to me (other than some silly superman-type pagan entity) is the Abrahamic transcendent God. He has an assortment of logical problems attached to how he is defined, so I tend to think its all impossible.

Further, judgmental people, in flat-out disregard for Jesus' own words, have turned this being into a judgmental, reward/punishment God -- a god repulsive to older souls.

The idea is infinite power and infinite love (mercy, compassion).  The first says that nothing we do can interfere with His getting His way, the second is that He wants and intends for everyone to be saved -- even if they reject it -- God is not something that can be rejected.

The logic is so plain that I cannot help but feel there is something perverse about those who preach otherwise.  They should get on their knees and beg forgiveness for thinking something so horrible about Him.

The only flaw in my argument is the assertion that God is a being of infinite justice -- that His justice requires that all "sins" be appropriately punished (although how eternal damnation is just punishment for the sins of a short human lifetime escapes me).  The thing is that it is easy to see all sorts of ways God could overcome this little difficulty -- some of which have been described above.


#143    ambelamba

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 12:27 AM

I've been raised in a multi-religious society, with some local religions that are not concerned with the supreme deity at all. In many folk religions in Korea, TEH supreme deity is just a vague concept that the practitioners don't really put that in mind.

They came with a Bible and their religion. stole our land, crushed our spirit, and now they tell us we should be thankful to the Lord for being saved.

-Chief Pontiac (1718-1769)

#144    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:32 AM

View PostSherapy, on 23 March 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

I think it is a fair question brought up by Frank, how do you work towards tolerance/love/justice when you proselytize for being saved or else be punished?

How does this contribute in a universal way to an unconditional love/justice for mankind?

It's a fair question. The best thing that one can do is teach by example. Actions speak louder than words. Words, without actions, ring hollow and silent.

There is one reality with billions of versions.

#145    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 04:01 AM

Jon K, thanks for your contribution to the thread. I'm not trying to find contradictions and mistakes in the Bible. I'm also not speaking for all Christians. I'm asking honest questions with no ulterior motives.

I realize that many Christians and many churches don't even believe in Hell. Still, the concept troubles me on an emotional level. I don't know how souls experience the passage of time, so I can't speak to that. Your theory very well may be correct.

I believe that all sins can be pardoned. The "unpardonable sin" is more of a *state* of unbelief, not a committed blasphemy, as we commonly understand it. Remember the Father and the Son are part of the Trinity. Anyway, this is just my take from ministers' interpretations of this.

I seem to share your views on how the New Testament and the Old Testament work together. The latter was the background for the former. Christian beliefs have roots in Judaism. They're the continuation of God's work on Earth.

As for slavery, it was no worse in the colonies. The Romans were brutal and savage in their treatment of "human chattel". The institution seldom has been kind to its victims, from the past to the present. Black slaves were part of a very tragic human continuum.

There is one reality with billions of versions.

#146    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 04:07 AM

View PostRon Jeremy, on 25 March 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

I've been raised in a multi-religious society, with some local religions that are not concerned with the supreme deity at all. In many folk religions in Korea, TEH supreme deity is just a vague concept that the practitioners don't really put that in mind.

I'm curious as to what Korean folk religions views on life are. Do they all see the Supreme Being in a vague way?

There is one reality with billions of versions.

#147    Paranoid Android

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:03 PM

Regarding the current discussion on "unconditional love", I'd like to enter into the argument a real life example of someone I know.  He's a casual friend I know from down the local pub.  I meet him every now and then when I play poker there on Fridays.  I'll usually have a quick beer with him and just chat.  Recently (a week ago), he shared with me about his son.  I've known about the problems he and his son have had for some time.  His son is a bit of a lazy bugger, and by that I mean he has no job, no desire to get a job, no desire to even pretend to look for one.  As such, he has been cut off from government subsidised assistance because he doesn't even pretend.  He's living on the street, unless he can find someone to lend a bedroom.  His father used to allow him to stay at his house, but one too many times he'd wake up with his son gone and all his money stolen.  He's losing people who are willing to give him a bed for the night because they wake up also and inevitably find something missing from their house also.

So back to the father.  We were having a talk last week and he admitted this to me, and I remember it word-for-word (minus the replacement of my real name with my online persona).  He said - "PA, I love my son, I really do.  But I just don't like him very much.  Can you understand that"?

Despite all the bad that his son has done, he still loves him.  As a father he always will love him.  That is the very essence of unconditional love, that despite everything else that happens, he will always be loved.  But he doesn't like him very much.  I submit to this discussion that when we think of God and "unconditional love", it should NOT be a case that God will simply give us everything regardless of how we act or behave.  The view that a God of unconditional love would not ever consider sending us to hell is wrong.  It is flawed, based on an unrealistic definition of "unconditional love".  Of course, as anyone who knows me will attest, I don't believe this hell is eternal torture, so in this context I think it quite a valid point to suggest that just because God loves each and every one of us that he would therefore ignore our actions just because we think he should.

Just thought I'd share :)

~ Regards,

Edited by Paranoid Android, 25 March 2013 - 01:05 PM.

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#148    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:10 PM

That is why I tend to think we live more than one life.  We work through what we do and deal with the consequences.


#149    danielost

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:52 PM

Mormon' teaching says that hell is so pretty that you would kill youself to go there.  Of course, if you did you would.  As for jugdement day, god isn't the one who will judge, youwill judge yourself.  Remember, evil cannot abide in the presence of god.  I guess that would be like doing something when you was a kid, and your dad calls you in.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#150    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:55 PM

That you will judge yourself sounds sophomoric.  I would prefer a point system.





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