57 replies to this topic

[Junior Chubb]

Sheep Say Meep, on 23 July 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

Idk dude it was just a thought. I posted here mainly for other ppl's ideas on the subject.

Sorry, wasn't trying to knock your ideas, just seeing how far they could be taken

[Sheep Say Meep]

Rob Awesome, on 23 July 2012 - 01:20 AM, said:

i think of ghosts as after-images of events that happened, they remain imprinted on their surroundings because of the profound mental effect they had on the person (ghost) at the time.  So what you are seeing is really more of a residual memory than a manifestation from beyond.

I think that some people can see these "ghosts" while others can't because their brain is on a closer frequency to the ghost.  In other words the memory is more compatible with the person's mind, the more compatible the more clearer and intense the experience.  

Absolutely no basis in science, but still something to think about.

something to think about indeed...

[Sheep Say Meep]

Junior Chubb, on 23 July 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

Sorry, wasn't trying to knock your ideas, just seeing how far they could be taken

gotcha ^^

[Mark is Back]

I like to see such free thought; it makes for a proper discussion.

Ghosts, real or not, are an unknown factor in the paranormal. Occurrences and unexplainable phenomenon definitely lend toward something being there, but we have no irrefutable physical proof (or else someone would be 1 million richer)...


So let us start with the skeptics curve, which is getting stronger. While investigators and those seeking alike are securing greater technology and methods of collecting data and anomalies we run into the double edged sword that is technical innovation. With every new piece of equipment, or every new method of research, we see another photo app or video editing software become available with ease of use out of the box. This software is turning the average Joe into a poltergeist paparazzi with little to no difficulty, and in extreme quality. So as we get better at looking legitimately, they get better at fabricating - so the skeptics are stuck being torn mostly on the question of "do I trust these people" and even if they do, it's still down to the sketchy images or sounds that are usually captured, and mass populated and propagated. So all in all, can we really trust the source, and even if we can - why should we.

To the believer's thought process, sadly more often than not - it's a simple "It's real Bro"... But some actually take the time to look into what they believe.


The Investigators curve, well -This is where the fun starts. Have to be both a skeptic and a believer in many senses to make this work, but those like me - More skeptic than not, tend to keep things credible best we can. The theories are what we're interested, sometimes it is legitimate concepts, other times simple folklore... This is where the question must be answered from. No "ghosts aren't real" or "It's real bro" - but a few of the ideas as to why.

Addressed earlier was the idea that traumatic, or violent, death will result in a severed spirit, well why? Is this really because of the "unfinished business" or "punishment/vengeance" or could it be because the body wasn't ready to die? The body, as it dies of old age, organ failure, and even disease or illness, will know it's death is imminent and begin to release endorphins to help to ease they body into a lull as it dies - along with other chemical transmitters that signal the organs to begin to shut down. The neurological patterns of a dying person are almost akin to the final movement of a symphony. Everything is planned, tuned, and happening as if conducted and predetermined by the body. So, sliding into the spiritual plane here - we would have to assume that a "soul" (not a spirit, different terms commonly bundled as that "spooky stuff") would ascend, dissipate, or otherwise at this point cease to be. So, a calm, planned death... (Even if painful or uncomfortable for the person dying, the body was prepared) - They drift off and the energy dissipates or is expended through the process of dying. Now when that process is started prematurely, or fails to start at all due to say the impact of a bullet, could less energy be expended, if any, or maybe without the transition there is a sudden dispersal of the remaining energy and it results in some form of "entity"....

But that's one look at it; some consider the Spirit and Soul two separate parts of the same being. The soul being the "battery" and the Spirit being the conduits holding the charge... They believe that when the body dies normally, similarly to the above, the charge is removed to the soul and the soul ascends - In the case of traumatic death, part of the soul fragments and more or less - the lights stay on (even when not in the body) - and this is a spirit/"ghost" with minimal memories and limited understanding...  

But most believe that ghosts are simply the imagination seeking some answer to life after death, those that are religious often fall back on some form of paradise, while those that aren't often just figure - dirt is dirt. I will avoid the religious views simply because I will likely misrepresent one or more and I'd rather those be addressed based on the questioners belief at their own leisure. I will suggest looking into the pre-coptic Egyptian views though - interesting reading.

To hit a few of the other things I caught from the messages. -

No, I won't send you my money. Life may not have a great culminating point - but I still plan to enjoy every second I can...

Not everything that dies would become a "ghost" - wouldn't make sense as was mentioned. If that were the case, we'd never need air conditioning... But, then again - we don't know I suppose.

I kind of like the EM theory, maybe it's all connected and we perceive it all as we see fit...

We won't really know until someone has captured one and questioned it...(or reports back from the other side)

&endrambling

[rashore]

Sheep Say Meep, on 22 July 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

Would you be more likely to become a ghost if you died a certain way?

Going from a yes ghosts are real angle.. Depends on the lore.
If you die violently, tragically, or unexpectedly. Like a sudden accident or murder.
If you are a suicide.
If you have unfinished business, and this is often linked with died unexpectedly. Like you died before you could get X done, or your killer has not been caught and brought to justice.
If you have something to hold on to after death. Like sticking around to keep an eye on your family, or you were particularly attached to your home in life.
If your mortal remains aren't treated kindly. Like you were not buried properly, or in the wrong place.. or someone messes with your grave.
If you are pulled from the "other side". Like being summoned by a medium or sucked through a vortex and your ghost is lost or stranded on the "living side".

From the spooky angle.. Still depends on the lore.
Energy from emotions can build up in an area to the point where they manifest as an entity.
Sometimes an act or emotion can be so powerful that it leaves a recording.
Demons, wee folk, and other multi/other/whatever dimensional critters.
The notion of being able to trap or siphon souls.
Souls can shed energy at the moment of death and leave behind impressions or signatures.
The notion that earth is limbo and all souls are trapped here till the end of everything or judgement day or whatever.

From the ghosts don't exist angle, that's the only bit of lore involved. They don't exist. But there is a plethora of information out there for other explanations of phenomena.

And there's probably a whole bunch of stuff that I'm just not thinking about right now.

[Delovely5150]

Sheep Say Meep, on 22 July 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

Would you be more likely to become a ghost if you died a certain way?

I'm not sure about ghosts but maybe more like an angel.  That's how I call it, not ghosts.  

I have loved ones who passed away and some of them died brutally, like the last one.  He was brutally murdered in our vacation home which we sold right after his death.  We blessed and performed some kind of ceremony so his spirit doesn't stay in the house but go with him peacefully.  It really hurts, we felt and still feel unimaginable pain but knowing that he is now an angel watching over us, protecting us from whoever did this to him and not a ghost chasing his killer makes it a bit bearable.

Sheep Say Meep, on 22 July 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

@ Diablo_04, I didn't say I wanted to be a ghost, I was just curious...

It really bothers me that we still don't know what's on the other side (or if there really isn't anything). Not knowing, and not knowing how to find out really frustrates me >

If we have all the answers right away, if answers are found easily, then where is the fun in that?  Life is an adventure.  Every bit of it is suppose to be challenging.  Yes, it would be nice to have things easy but some things are really not meant to be.  It might not be a great idea to force it but rather let things slide and come naturally.

[Super-Fly]

Interesting i suppose.

Still going!

Thanks,

[Simbi Laveau]

All things are made of matter,or energy. As per scientific FACT,matter can be neither created or destroyed,it just changes form .
Matter,with certain catalysts,can be turned into energy .
So.....death it matter and energy,just changing form .
This kind of energy cannot be identified or quantified,yet .
And yes,certain kinds of deaths can make you a ghost .

I dare say the WTC site has a ton of them,given those people were literally vaporized on the spot,and have no idea what happened to them .

[Mark is Back]

Simbi Laveau, on 25 July 2012 - 04:11 AM, said:

All things are made of matter,or energy. As per scientific FACT,matter can be neither created or destroyed,it just changes form .
Matter,with certain catalysts,can be turned into energy .
So.....death it matter and energy,just changing form .
This kind of energy cannot be identified or quantified,yet .
And yes,certain kinds of deaths can make you a ghost .

I dare say the WTC site has a ton of them,given those people were literally vaporized on the spot,and have no idea what happened to them .

....Well hang on a second... Matter in and of itself cannot be destroyed because it represents the substance of any and all physical objects. It will merely become another form of matter, so in essence sure - that makes sense - but the destruction of the matter was not the concern here. The Energy, which also cannot be destroyed - or created - but only stored or transferred, is what I believe is at question; just remember that energy does not need to be stored as matter to exist. That energy that we're referring to is ever present in the physical form of a human being, matter being transferred into energy, being stored and exerted as needed as force, Kinetic or Electromagnetic radiance. So we are constantly creating energy and we're constantly reserving fuel to process more energy if needed, the question is what happens to that when we die right? Even if you shut down the reactor, there is still a current in the wire unless it has a place to convert that energy.

So death in and of itself is NOT a form of energy, why would it be - it's an action or process (which requires energy to complete) but it's not independent. The remaining energy in our system needs some form of outlet - the theory revolves around it not converting into other physical actions (because energy must still be present in the cells for things like decomposition to occur, and the continued growth process, but that relies on independent organisms not charged by the body itself), but rather transferring instantaneously from the body. Now since it's not destroyed - what's to say what becomes of that energy - does it simply radiate as heat until depleted, or is it maybe capable of maintaining itself by "consuming" or transferring energy from other sources and existing continuously... Sure entire functions would become irrelevant, but cognitive function does not require biological form, especially since the biological presence accounts for the majority of our brains functionality.

So the energy is quantified, that's not the problem, since death isn't an energy of its own but rather an action requiring energy, the transfer thereof.

The question is; what happens to what's left in the cup when the cup breaks?

We still don't really know that some even causes or forces someone to become a ghost or entity, hell we don't even know if people do at all. That's ALL still up for debate, and will be for a long time. But these are ideas, and the concepts to explain the validity, or lack thereof, for those ideas.

If traumatic death does result in severance of the soul/sprit or the creation of "Ghosts" then sure it would make sense for Ground Zero to be littered with activity - and actually being based out of New York (state, not the city) we have gotten calls from people saying they've been back to visit and witnessed things occurring. Members of the construction crew responsible for clearing the site have some amazing stories, but the site will remain - likely uninvestigated (By a remotely credibly crew) because of the stigma, and respect factor involved. This also goes for places like Auschwitz, Hiroshima and Nagasaki (talk about extra energy...), and even the beach head of Normandy... I mean these events in history signaled a massive loss of life, rather suddenly - and even then only SOME of the time are there reports of activity. Auschwitz has an unnerving feeling of dread and sadness - the entire area is plagued with it - even to the point that animals stray away from it - but could that be something natural, and the stigma of the human relation - or could it be the emotion of the masses that died being imprinted - or could it even be residual energy radiating and the EM field just causes that feeling (which it can)...


In all cases, paranormal applies, because it's beyond what would be normal - even if it's a natural explanation - coincidence maybe, but why that location - was it like that before the encampment - was it chosen for that reason maybe... So much to ask, and research...

And one quick reference point - the deaths in the World Trade Centers would not have been instantaneous vaporization... The pilots - sure, those on the floors hit directly - maybe - but the rest of the building's occupants.. That was not a simple flick of a switch and off to greener pastures. I don't mean to sound cold, but that would have been a gruesome situation. The options were falling, suffocating, being crushed, or being burned alive........ Traumatic each of course, but not instantaneous...........

People will soon learn to hate reading my ramblings....

[Junior Chubb]

Mark is Back, on 25 July 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

People will soon learn to hate reading my ramblings....

That's if they can be bothered to read them...

[Sheep Say Meep]

@Mark is back, interesting post! thanks for the input

@Delovely5150, I'm very sorry for your loss... I agree that life is and should be an adventure, and shouldn't be easy. Hell, if it were easy I'd get bored with it... but then again, I'm just very curious by nature, and it bothers me that a team of scientists and experts haven't sat down and THOROUGHLY researched this sort of thing. I feel like if people really wanted to know badly enough we would just sit down and be able to do more research, more experiments, and just learn and figure out everything there is to know about this.

@Simbi Laveau, could you elaborate about the WTC site?

@Mark is back (again), yes I agree that it's the energy not matter in question. The human body almost always decomposes after death, there's no mystery in that... but the energy... where does it go? what is it transformed into? how does that transformation take place? And yes, death is a process- THE process- that causes the sudden (or sometimes not so sudden) conversion of this energy. I suppose some would call it the life force, since eventually the energy in the cells would simply be lost as heat when they can't function anymore... Unless... the combined energy in all of the cells is what IS the life force, which keeps us alive. In that case, it would explain why certain deaths "make" ghosts: Depending on the extent and rate of body decomposition, certain cells may die more quickly, but cells of another part of the body may still be "alive" and would remain to live until they no longer can survive on their own- which probably wouldn't take long since the body systems are so interconnected. Say someone got shot in the chest- heart specifically. The suddenness of the injury would cause a sudden release of energy, a kind of adrenaline rush maybe. The other body systems and the cells in them would eventually lose their energy by working so hard to keep the body running, and would just die and decompose. However, what happens to the energy that was suddenly expelled from the heart? This is merely speculation, but I wonder if it'd make sense to someone trained as a doctor or something...

But does death itself need energy? I suppose all processes need energy to be preformed, but maybe death is the exception in that it might be the result of cells losing energy and dying.

As for the case of Auschwitz, there may be ghosts there, but there may not be. I haven't even been there yet... but just a suggestion: the reason for the feeling of dread and the animals staying away from the area, it could be because all of our subconcious's are somehow connected, and if animals don't have them they may somehow sense human thoughts about the place. It could very well be explained, but then again, there could be ghosts... or EM energy... or a dozen other things, some of which could be related even. "In all cases, paranormal applies, because it's beyond what would be normal - even if it's a natural explanation - coincidence maybe, but why that location - was it like that before the encampment - was it chosen for that reason maybe... " Interesting thought there... what if it really was chosen for that reason?

And lastly, for what its worth, I think your rantings are really interesting to read... rather lengthy though (then again this post is turning out to be quite lengthy itself...)

Aaaand sorry it took me so long to reply here. Been busy with work...

[Sheep Say Meep]

aaand I *just* realized WTC stands for World Trade Center... Derp

[In_Spirit]

Lots of questions that need answering here. No scientific evidence to give us definite answers, just anecdotal evidence...and lots of it. All this means is that it is WORTH investigating. It is worth seeking that scientific evidence and I would like to see that happening.But that won't happen until people get over the stigma, We need to be open to the possibility that there is actually something worth looking into when thousands upon thousands are witnesses every day to full or partial apparitions, moving objects, etc.

The anecdotal evidence shows that places that are haunted are more often than not places where traumatic, unexpected or suicidal deaths have occurred. This isn't to say that ALL souls that depart this way will end up as ghosts. The emotional transference of energy imprinting on a place is an intriguing theory, especially since the emotion would be of a traumatic nature.

Based on my observation of further anecdotal evidence of the thousands of people who have died and come back (those who had Near Death Experiences) and their 'coincidentally' similar descriptions of being greeted by people they know and love who died before them (a grandparent, a parent, or sibling), my theory is that those who died suddenly, unexpectedly, or before their time (suicide) might not have had someone there to greet them precisely for that reason - the spirits on the other side may have not been prepared to meet them and 'guide' them over to the other side.  Or they may have someone greet them but the soul is not yet ready to leave and go with them because of 'unfinished' business and their spirit/soul remains in this earthly dimension until he/she can sort things out.

That would explain the VAST array of cases of 'after-death communication' that those who grieve the loss of loved ones experience soon after their loved one has died. There are remarkable similarities between the way the spirit will come through and communicate (ie. knocking pictures over, appearing at the foot of the bed, appearing in dreams). The cases of anecdotal evidence are documented in a book called 'Hello from Heaven' by the Guggenheims. They were able to draw similarities between the types of messages family members experience - and the messages received. When the loved one who died comes back the common message tends to be said (in various ways)  "I am okay".

So, my theory is that these people who die suddenly may come back because they have unfinished business - like looking after family members that may be having a hard time coping. They may stay around until they are at peace and then when they are ready, they move on to where they need to go. I would think that there would be continuous opportunities for that soul to move on to the other side away from the heaviness of the earthly dimension and to a 'lighter' existence, when ready.

In the case of hauntings / apparitions witnessed in old places - this may be a place a spirit chooses to return to, to relive memories, or perhaps they have not worked through their emotions yet or do not even realize they've crossed over because they themselves never believed in the possibility of an afterlife. This may be a case of confusion.

In terms of the WTC, I believe that there were many many spirits there ready and waiting to greet their loved ones and help them cross over to the other side when it happened. It was something the other side was prepared for - so I believe MOST of those who died there would have crossed over safely. That is not to say that a lot of intense emotional energy doesn't remain there. It is a possibility that that location is visited and revisited a lot by those souls who died there, who are continuing to work on healing and/or perhaps rejected the notion that they are dead.  

That is just my perspective on these things, based on my own observations and experiences.