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Rabbi's Weiss view of Zoinism


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#46    GoSC

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 02:50 AM

View Postand then, on 18 April 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

The "I'm" is rhetorical I hope... I have no where said I personally am better than anyone.  I also do not subscribe to the notion that Jews are in any way superior to other human beings, far from it.  Those who have actually read what I say will understand this.  Those who simply want to bang a drum and hate will do so.  As a rule, I have found that those who hate the "elite" do so because they either are in rebellion against the God of the Bible or simply do not believe in the Creator.  No harm, no foul.  God chose the tribes of Israel, Jacob's descendants, to fulfill a purpose for Him.  They have been fully rebellious for millennia (as have all other humans) and they have been repeatedly punished for their rebellion.  Hardly a pleasant position to be in.  Those who have a problem with the Creator ought best to take that up with Him...I only believe the words He gave.

But your beliefs are contradictory with the Bible. By this fact alone, why did God even bother  to judge and to put the Jews into captivity in the first place, if he was going to raise the state of Israel later?

As you may or may not realize there are plenty of parallels between pre-captive apostate Judah and the apostate state of Israel.

Zionism is just another false god and idol according to the Bible. Zionism directly contradicts God's promises to the Jews (see Deuteronomy 30:1-6 emphasis on verses 2 & 3 in this passage). Zionism actually places Jews above God and his word. So be careful and go read that passage.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#47    GoSC

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 03:16 AM

Zionism is easily defined as "We Zionists possess the land sans God, sans the Law of God, and sans the Aaronic priesthood (which remains lost due to Herod burning the geneaologies of the Jews)".

There is not a descendant of Aaron on the face of the Earth to be found today due to thousands of years of mixed marriages and proselytes. But we have a greater High Priest than a descendant of the Levite Aaron, don't we?

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#48    Zaphod222

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 06:13 AM

View Postseller2006, on 19 April 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Zionist, most subtle form of racial supremacy, all forms of ZIONISM is racial superemacy , but its only ok for the Jewish community? My bad there are many Jewish groups against Zionism, and war on Israel ,  i would love to hear that person's opinion. Anyway the PALESTENIANS were were living there for centuries and centuries, it MATTERS NOT what a book says, by that logic you should listen to Hindu claims ,etc ,etc ,etc ,etc ,etc. The world would be in DISARRAY.ISRAEL existed with 12-13 tribes, not just the Jewish people .... i am sick of tired of pro Israeli posts and propaganda, especially by a christian zionist ( two labels doesnt means its any better). Just sounds like your a christian siding with the Jews to hate MUSLIMS, just like the old times :) . Its only a matter of time, and i repeat this. Israel will not last as a country, far to my instablity in the region, in the coming days the land is going no be reclaim and that scripture of yours will be completely proven wrong, like the other thousands of times. Good luck in your racist endeavors tho.

What a bunch of racist claptrap. Firstly, Zionism is simply the right of Israel to exist... which is guaranteed by the UN by the way. Secondly, the term "Palestinians" simply refers to all people living in the area of Palesting, including muslims, Christians, Druzes and yes Jews... who are actually the original residents of the area.

It was Yassir Arafat who invented the label "Palestinians" to refer only to muslim Arabs, in order to de-legitimize all others. A clever semantic trick, and alas it works wonderfully on those low-information opinionators who refuse to do their homework.

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#49    Br Cornelius

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 07:11 AM

The region of Palestine existed before the state of Israel - and those who lived in it were Palestinians - regardless of faith.
To attempt to write Palestine, and a Palestinian people, out of existence is a futile lost cause.

Br Cornelius

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#50    GoSC

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:06 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 19 April 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Firstly, Zionism is simply the right of Israel to exist... which is guaranteed by the UN by the way.

A clever semantic trick, and alas it works wonderfully on those low-information opinionators who refuse to do their homework.

Speaking of semantics! :rolleyes:

Origins and definition of Zionism
The racist characteristics of nationalism can be found in the Zionist ideology and in the State of Israel, a nation state. The word Zionism is used today for the foundational ideology of the Israeli nation state - the claims by which it justifies its existence. However Zionism as a nationalist movement is older than that state: past and present Zionism do not always coincide.

Zionism is a diaspora nationalism of the Jewish people. In a diaspora nationalism, most members of the national group are not resident on the claimed national territory, and the nation state can only be achieved by 'return' migration. Zionism is an unusual nationalism: it is largely the creation of a single individual, Theodor Herzl. He was the first to make a public claim to a Jewish State, and promoted that idea in Europe. His work reflected the general climate of nationalist revival movements in eastern Europe at the time, especially in the Austro-Hungarian empire. It was almost inevitable, that a Jewish movement would identify Jews as 'a people' when all around them Germans, Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Ruthenians, Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, and Hungarians were doing the same. The other historically possible options - a purely religious revival movement, and an emancipation movement - were side-tracked.

Zionism is also unusual because, in the early years, there was no clear idea of the national homeland. There was a clear territorial concentration of Jews in Europe, in what is now Poland, Belarus, the Ukraine and southern Russia. However, except for local concentrations, they were in a minority even in this territory. The idea of a Jewish nation state in eastern Europe was never influential in Zionism. Some of the early plans for Jewish resettlement were not even formally nationalist: they made no claim to a state. Resettlement in a British colony, such as Uganda, was for a time the most serious option. The negotiations came to nothing - but the idea influenced British policy, when Palestine became a British mandate territory, after the First World War.

By the time of the Balfour Declaration, Zionism was a standard nationalist movement. Zionists claimed to speak on behalf of a people, the Jewish people. They claimed a nation state for that people in Palestine, on the grounds that it was the historic homeland of the Jewish people. The 'Jewish people' for almost all Zionists was (and is) an ethno-national group - and not a religious community. A minority of religious Jews still opposes Zionism for religious reasons.

Zionism in the State of Israel
When the State of Israel came into existence, it included a mainly Arab minority, now about one million people. Historically Zionism has never recognised any 'national minority' within the nation, the status of (for instance) the Frisians within the modern Dutch nation. For Zionists, the Jewish people is the Jewish nation: Zionism is a mono-ethnic nationalism comparable to Irish nationalism. The present State of Israel generally has the constitutional structure of a secular nation state. It has conceded citizenship to the 'Israeli Arabs', although many will identify themselves as 'Palestinians'. However there is no tradition in Zionism which sees this group ('Arabs' or 'Palestinians') as a constituent minority of the Jewish people. Although many Zionists claimed the territory where Yasir Arafat lived, no Zionist ever saw him as a Jew.

There is also no nationalist movement to establish a bi-national state on the former mandate territory of Palestine. Zionism is not such a movement, and the State of Israel does not claim to be a bi-national state. In this respect, Zionism is comparable to Czech nationalism or Slovak nationalism - not to Czechoslovak nationalism.. No Zionists call themselves Palestino-Jews or Judaeo-Palestinians. The State is called Israel, not Filastino-Israel or Israelo-Filastina

Within this framework, which includes contradictory ideas about Israeli citizenship, the four racist characteristics can be identified.

Firstly, the Zionist movement historically made a claim to territory on behalf of 'the Jewish people', an exclusive geopolitical claim. It claimed that individual Jews had a right to residence in that territory, which did not apply to randomly selected non-Jews outside that territory. None of the early Zionists advocated the ethnic cleansing, which in fact preceded the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 - but none of them believed that non-Jews had a right to the Jewish homeland either. Zionists attribute a superior quality to Jews, namely the exclusive right to the Jewish national territory. The State of Israel, by definition, claims Israeli territory for Israeli's. It attributes a superior quality to Israeli's, although paradoxically that includes the Arab minority with Israeli citizenship. However, the State of Israel is not 'Israelist' - in the sense of consistently presenting these claims for both its Jewish and Arab citizens. In official pronouncements, such as its defensive speech to the Durban anti-racism conference, Israel continues to claim state legitimacy as the national homeland for the 'Jewish people'. It is therefore not correct to say, that in Israel Jewish diaspora nationalism has been succeeded by Israeli nationalism. The legitimising ideology of Israel is still largely Zionism, and not 'Israelism'.

Secondly, Zionism attributes an inferior status to members of non-Jewish ethno-national groups: that they lack the absolute right to residence in the Jewish homeland, and to citizenship of a Jewish nation state. The State of Israel confers no right of residence or citizenship on persons born outside Israel, unless they have specific links to Israel, to the Jewish people, or to Judaism. That excludes about 99% of the world population. The only exception to the general pattern of nationalist exclusion is, that the State of Israel extends citizenship to the historically resident Arab minority. However, some groups in Israel dispute even their right to residence, and propose their expulsion as part of a 'peace settlement' - together with the expulsion of Palestinians from all or part of the occupied territories. According to a 2003 opinion poll in Israel (Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies), 31% now support the expulsion of the Arab minority, and 46% support clearance of the territories.

The most obvious exclusion, which was not foreseen by the early Zionists, is the status of the Palestinians in the occupied territories. Theodor Herzl never imagined that a Jewish state would be an occupying power, and therefore the de facto government, for a large non-Jewish population. In addition, about three million people belong to the clearly identifiable 'Palestinian-refugee' minorities, in other Arab countries, although most were born in their present country of residence. The State of Israel clearly attributes an inferior status to this population: namely that they do not possess the right to Israeli citizenship. This population is generally equivalent to the 'Palestinian people' in the occupied territories, although it includes small non-Jewish, non-Arab minorities. The members of this population, (primarily Palestinian), can not vote, for instance, and if they did all vote in Israeli elections, it would mean the end of the State of Israel. Again it is true that all nation states operate this exclusion, and none of them extend citizenship to everyone, certainly not to hostile populations. That does not make such policies any less racist, since the exclusions are by definition on ethnic or national grounds.

That would not matter so much, if Israeli borders were open to all immigrants: but they are not, and this is the third racist characteristic of Zionism. Israel has one of the highest immigration rates in history, but immigration policy has always been restrictive. Although Israel grants citizenship to the resident Arab minority, it does not permit Arab immigration, even by former residents of its territory. Only those who stayed in their villages in 1948 got Israeli citizenship: those who crossed the front line to the Arab side can not get back - not as a citizen, and probably not as a visitor. Other Arabs, who have no connection with Palestine, can not simply migrate to Israel, nor can most of the world's population. Israeli immigration is essentially for Jews only, and this is the most obviously racist policy of present Zionism. In this case, the State of Israel has a formal and explicit policy of Jewish immigration, which is clearly Zionist. It is the logical consequence of the original Zionist demand for a Jewish state formed by migration, meaning migration of Jews.

In one respect Israeli policy differs from most national immigration policies: citizenship can be indirectly acquired on religious grounds. A person who converts to Judaism can be a Jew in the sense of the Israeli Law of Return, if the conversion is accepted as valid by religious authorities in Israel. The convert can then go to Israel (entry can not be legally refused), and can claim Israeli nationality and citizenship. Sometimes this is quoted by Israel's supporters, to show Israel is not racist. In theory, all the inhabitants of the Palestinian territories can sincerely convert to Judaism tomorrow, and on acceptance of their conversion move to Israel. - where they will all presumably live as good and prosperous Israeli citizens. In practice this is absurdly unlikely. And the question is: why should they have to convert to Judaism, when native-born atheist or Buddhist Israelis can still be part of the Jewish people?

This is the fourth racist characteristic, equally present in the state policies of Israel and present Zionist belief. It was not very relevant for the early Zionists, who were too far from a Jewish state to think about its future citizenship policy. Nevertheless, it was predictable even at the time Herzl wrote, on the basis of the general characteristics of European nation states (and of the Austro-Hungarian empire where he lived). The child of an Israeli citizen mother and and Israeli citizen father is an Israeli citizen. (I am not sure if this applies to the children of Israeli Arabs, born in the occupied territories). The child acquires this privilege without effort: no application under the Law of Return, no conversion to Judaism, no other qualification for citizenship. The child simply acquires the rights (and duties) of an Israeli citizen through unconscious biological process. The child without this biological advantage (birth, or parentage, or genetic material) does not automatically acquire citizenship. Life in Israel is not always pleasant, and many western Jews hesitate to emigrate there, but within the region an Israeli-born child has the advantage. The child born to Israeli settlers in central Hebron will statistically live longer, be better educated, and have a higher standard of living, then the Palestinian child born in an adjoining house. This advantage is part of the general advantage of being born in a rich country, which about one-fifth of the world's population share.

In citizenship and immigration issues, biology determines fate. Not inevitably, but because nation states are structured that way. There is no inherent moral reason why states should limit immigration, or residence, or citizenship, simply on grounds of birth. In fact, it is hard to think of any moral justification for it. It is clearly racist in the general sense of the word, and its derivation from the ideology of nationalism indicates the racist origins of that ideology. The nationalism underlying the nation state Israel, which is accurately called Zionism, is no different in this respect. Here too, Zionism is racist.

http://web.inter.nl....or/zionism.html

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#51    and then

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 09:14 AM

:sleepy:

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#52    GoSC

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 07:03 PM

View Postand then, on 19 April 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

:sleepy:

Yeah... yeah...

you just take note of this, Christian Zionism curses the Jews through their misinterpretation of Zechariah 13:8! That is cursing the Jewish people by prophesying their doom in the Holy Land.

But do you fully realize that Israel's possession of the land is strictly conditional to the covenant of Yahweh?

God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your descendants after you; every male among you shall be circumcised. And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. And every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations, a servant who is born in the house or who is bought with money from any foreigner, who is not of your descendants. A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant. Genesis 17:9-14

"You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself. Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the Earth is mine. Exodus 19:4-5

40 ‘If they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their forefathers, in their unfaithfulness which they committed against Me, and also in their acting with hostility against Me— 41 I also was acting with hostility against them, to bring them into the land of their enemies—or if their uncircumcised heart becomes humbled so that they then make amends for their iniquity, 42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and I will remember also My covenant with Isaac, and My covenant with Abraham as well, and I will remember the land. 43 For the land will be abandoned by them, and will make up for its sabbaths while it is made desolate without them. They, meanwhile, will be making amends for their iniquity, because they rejected My ordinances and their soul abhorred My statutes. 44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, nor will I so abhor them as to destroy them, breaking My covenant with them; for I am the Lord their God. 45 But I will remember for them the covenant with their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am the Lord.’” Leviticus 26:40-45

Then it shall come about, because you listen to these judgments and keep and do them, that the Lord your God will keep you His covenant and His lovingkindness which He swore to your forefathers. Deuteronomy 7:12

15 It shall come about that just as all the good words which the Lord your God spoke to you have come upon you, so the Lord will bring upon you all the threats, until He has destroyed you from off this good land which the Lord your God has given you. 16 When you transgress the covenant of the Lord your God, which He commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, then the anger of the Lord will burn against you, and you will perish quickly from off the good land which He has given you.” Joshua 23:15-16

6 “But if you or your sons indeed turn away from following Me, and do not keep My commandments and My statutes which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods and worship them, 7 then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them, and the house which I have consecrated for My name, I will cast out of My sight. So Israel will become a proverb and a byword among all peoples. 8 And this house will become a heap of ruins; everyone who passes by will be astonished and hiss and say, ‘Why has the Lord done thus to this land and to this house?’ 9 And they will say, ‘Because they forsook the Lord their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them, therefore the Lord has brought all this adversity on them.’” 1 Kings 9:6-9

19 “But if you turn away and forsake My statutes and My commandments which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods and worship them, 20 then I will uproot you from My land which I have given you, and this house which I have consecrated for My name I will cast out of My sight and I will make it a proverb and a byword among all peoples. 21 As for this house, which was exalted, everyone who passes by it will be astonished and say, ‘Why has the Lord done thus to this land and to this house?’ 22 And they will say, ‘Because they forsook the Lord, the God of their fathers who brought them from the land of Egypt, and they adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them; therefore He has brought all this adversity on them.’” 2 Chronicles 7:19-22

12 Then the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, 13 “Thus says the Lord God of Israel, ‘I made a covenant with your forefathers in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, saying, 14 “At the end of seven years each of you shall set free his Hebrew brother who has been sold to you and has served you six years, you shall send him out free from you; but your forefathers did not obey Me or incline their ear to Me. 15 Although recently you had turned and done what is right in My sight, each man proclaiming release to his neighbor, and you had made a covenant before Me in the house which is called by My name. 16 Yet you turned and profaned My name, and each man took back his male servant and each man his female servant whom you had set free according to their desire, and you brought them into subjection to be your male servants and female servants.”’

17 “Therefore thus says the Lord, ‘You have not obeyed Me in proclaiming release each man to his brother and each man to his neighbor. Behold, I am proclaiming a release to you,’ declares the Lord, ‘to the sword, to the pestilence and to the famine; and I will make you a terror to all the kingdoms of the earth. 18 I will give the men who have transgressed My covenant, who have not fulfilled the words of the covenant which they made before Me, when they cut the calf in two and passed between its parts— 19 the officials of Judah and the officials of Jerusalem, the court officers and the priests and all the people of the land who passed between the parts of the calf— 20 I will give them into the hand of their enemies and into the hand of those who seek their life. And their dead bodies will be food for the birds of the sky and the beasts of the earth. 21 Zedekiah king of Judah and his officials I will give into the hand of their enemies and into the hand of those who seek their life, and into the hand of the army of the king of Babylon which has gone away from you. 22 Behold, I am going to command,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will bring them back to this city; and they will fight against it and take it and burn it with fire; and I will make the cities of Judah a desolation without inhabitant.’” Jeremiah 34:12-22

23 Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, 24 “Son of man, they who live in these waste places in the land of Israel are saying, ‘Abraham was only one, yet he possessed the land; so to us who are many the land has been given as a possession.’ 25 Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “You eat meat with the blood in it, lift up your eyes to your idols as you shed blood. Should you then possess the land? 26 You rely on your sword, you commit abominations and each of you defiles his neighbor’s wife. Should you then possess the land?”’ 27 Thus you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “As I live, surely those who are in the waste places will fall by the sword, and whoever is in the open field I will give to the beasts to be devoured, and those who are in the strongholds and in the caves will die of pestilence. 28 I will make the land a desolation and a waste, and the pride of her power will cease; and the mountains of Israel will be desolate so that no one will pass through. 29 Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I make the land a desolation and a waste because of all their abominations which they have committed.”’  Ezekiel 33:23-29

Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it. Matthew 21:43

Edited by B Jenkins, 19 April 2013 - 07:12 PM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#53    GoSC

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 07:52 PM

THE PROPHETS CONDEMNED THE HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL:

21 Then the king of Israel when he saw them, said to Elisha, “My father, shall I kill them? Shall I kill them?” 22 He answered, “You shall not kill them. Would you kill those you have taken captive with your sword and with your bow? Set bread and water before them, that they may eat and drink and go to their master.” 23 So he prepared a great feast for them; and when they had eaten and drunk he sent them away, and they went to their master. And the marauding bands of Arameans did not come again into the land of Israel. 2 Kings 6:21-23

9 But a prophet of the Lord was there, whose name was Oded; and he went out to meet the army which came to Samaria and said to them, “Behold, because the Lord, the God of your fathers, was angry with Judah, He has delivered them into your hand, and you have slain them in a rage which has even reached heaven. 10 Now you are proposing to subjugate for yourselves the people of Judah and Jerusalem for male and female slaves. Surely, do you not have transgressions of your own against the Lord your God? 11 Now therefore, listen to me and return the captives whom you captured from your brothers, for the burning anger of the Lord is against you.” 2 Chronicles 28:9-11

7 I consulted with myself and contended with the nobles and the rulers and said to them, “You are exacting usury, each from his brother!” Therefore, I held a great assembly against them. 8 I said to them, “We according to our ability have redeemed our Jewish brothers who were sold to the nations; now would you even sell your brothers that they may be sold to us?” Then they were silent and could not find a word to say. 9 Again I said, “The thing which you are doing is not good; should you not walk in the fear of our God because of the reproach of the nations, our enemies? 10 And likewise I, my brothers and my servants are lending them money and grain. Please, let us leave off this usury. 11 Please, give back to them this very day their fields, their vineyards, their olive groves and their houses, also the hundredth part of the money and of the grain, the new wine and the oil that you are exacting from them.” Nehemiah 5:7-11

11 But afterward they turned around and took back the male servants and the female servants whom they had set free, and brought them into subjection for male servants and for female servants.

12 Then the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, 13 “Thus says the Lord God of Israel, ‘I made a covenant with your forefathers in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, saying, 14 “At the end of seven years each of you shall set free his Hebrew brother who has been sold to you and has served you six years, you shall send him out free from you; but your forefathers did not obey Me or incline their ear to Me. 15 Although recently you had turned and done what is right in My sight, each man proclaiming release to his neighbor, and you had made a covenant before Me in the house which is called by My name. 16 Yet you turned and profaned My name, and each man took back his male servant and each man his female servant whom you had set free according to their desire, and you brought them into subjection to be your male servants and female servants.”’

17 “Therefore thus says the Lord, ‘You have not obeyed Me in proclaiming release each man to his brother and each man to his neighbor. Behold, I am proclaiming a release to you,’ declares the Lord, ‘to the sword, to the pestilence and to the famine; and I will make you a terror to all the kingdoms of the earth. Jeremiah 34:11-17

6 Thus says the Lord,
“For three transgressions of Israel and for four
I will not revoke its punishment,
Because they sell the righteous for money
And the needy for a pair of sandals.
7 “These who pant after the very dust of the earth on the head of the helpless
Also turn aside the way of the humble;
And a man and his father resort to the same girl
In order to profane My holy name. Amos 2:6-7

MOSES COMMANDED THE HEBREWS THAT THEY SHOULD NOT OPPRESS THE STRANGERS AND NON-JEWS IN THE LAND:

49 The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you.” Exodus 12:49

21 “You shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. Exodus 22:21

9 “You shall not oppress a stranger, since you yourselves know the feelings of a stranger, for you also were strangers in the land of Egypt. Exodus 23:9

33 ‘When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. 34 The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the Lord your God. Leviticus 19:33-34

35 Now in case a countryman of yours becomes poor and his means with regard to you falter, then you are to sustain him, like a stranger or sojourner, that he may live with you. Leviticus 25:35

18 He executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and shows His love for the alien by giving him food and clothing. 19 So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt. Deuteronomy 10:18-19

7 You shall not detest an Edomite, for he is your brother, you shall not detest an Egyptian, because you were an alien in his land. Deuteronomy 23:7

17 You shall not pervert the justice due an alien or an orphan, nor take a widow's garment in pledge. Deuteronomy 24:17

19 Cursed is he who distorts the justice due an alien, orphan, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen. Deuteronomy 27:19

Edited by B Jenkins, 19 April 2013 - 08:05 PM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#54    Dark_Grey

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:19 PM

Interesting...the 4 racist characteristics of Zionism..

It wasn't until recently that I was informed as to the real situation in the middle-east. A situation vastly different than what is portrayed here.

Exploring your own consciousness is the fundamental right of every individual

Locking people in a cage because they choose to exercise that right should be considered a crime against humanity


#55    and then

and then

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 09:47 PM

View PostDark_Grey, on 19 April 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

Interesting...the 4 racist characteristics of Zionism..

It wasn't until recently that I was informed as to the real situation in the middle-east. A situation vastly different than what is portrayed here.
I've watched it these 40 years.  The song remains the same.  Both sides want the land, both sides fail to trust the other and both sides kill in what they think of as self defense.  No real mystery.  People color the conflict with their own personal biases, myself included, and they make a choice who to support.  I fully realize that nothing I do is going to change a single thing there.  I lose no sleep over any of it because I actually believe in the God that wrote those scriptures previously quoted - and I trust Him to complete His work in justice.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#56    Dark_Grey

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 09:49 PM

View Postand then, on 19 April 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

I've watched it these 40 years.  The song remains the same.  Both sides want the land, both sides fail to trust the other and both sides kill in what they think of as self defense.  No real mystery.  People color the conflict with their own personal biases, myself included, and they make a choice who to support.  I fully realize that nothing I do is going to change a single thing there.  I lose no sleep over any of it because I actually believe in the God that wrote those scriptures previously quoted - and I trust Him to complete His work in justice.

Well apparently according to God Israel will never posses the land based on the way they've been treating their neighbours. All the Biblical quotes above seem to indicate that.

Exploring your own consciousness is the fundamental right of every individual

Locking people in a cage because they choose to exercise that right should be considered a crime against humanity


#57    and then

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:02 PM

View PostDark_Grey, on 19 April 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

Well apparently according to God Israel will never posses the land based on the way they've been treating their neighbours. All the Biblical quotes above seem to indicate that.
Time will tell.  If they are the usurpers and evil incarnate they are accused of being then I'm surprised they've lasted 65 years so far.  According to OT scripture they will have a horrible judgement against them in the last days but they will never be dispossessed of their land again.  Time will tell on that one also.  Until then, I'm content to wait and watch.  I will say this though, if there is ONE event that might rattle the faith of millions of Christians, it would be an Islamic takeover of all of Israel and the Jews being sent into another diaspora or, as is more likely, eradicated.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#58    GoSC

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 06:52 PM

View Postand then, on 19 April 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

Time will tell.  If they are the usurpers and evil incarnate they are accused of being then I'm surprised they've lasted 65 years so far.  According to OT scripture they will have a horrible judgement against them in the last days but they will never be dispossessed of their land again.  Time will tell on that one also.  Until then, I'm content to wait and watch.  I will say this though, if there is ONE event that might rattle the faith of millions of Christians, it would be an Islamic takeover of all of Israel and the Jews being sent into another diaspora or, as is more likely, eradicated.

Um, lets read that piece of scripture with proper perspective:


7 “Are you not as the sons of Ethiopia to Me,
O sons of Israel?” declares the Lord.
“Have I not brought up Israel from the land of Egypt,
And the Philistines from Caphtor and the Arameans from Kir?
8 “Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are on the sinful kingdom,
And I will destroy it from the face of the earth;
Nevertheless, I will not totally destroy the house of Jacob,”
Declares the Lord.
9 “For behold, I am commanding,
And I will shake the house of Israel among all nations
As grain is shaken in a sieve,
But not a kernel will fall to the ground.
10 “All the sinners of My people will die by the sword,
Those who say, ‘The calamity will not overtake or confront us.’

The Restoration of Israel


11 “In that day I will raise up the fallen booth of David,
And wall up its breaches;
I will also raise up its ruins
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom
And all the nations who are called by My name,”
Declares the Lord who does this.

13 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“When the plowman will overtake the reaper
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
When the mountains will drip sweet wine
And all the hills will be dissolved.
14 “Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 “I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,”
Says the Lord your God.
Amos 9:7-15

EDIT: Also read Isaiah chapter 60 and learn how spiritual this "event" is supposed to be, why would God use Zionism when he himself is supposed to bring the Jews back to the land?

Edited by B Jenkins, 20 April 2013 - 07:06 PM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).




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