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Was the Socorro incident an elaborate hoax ?


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#76    Kludge808

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:08 PM

Hi, Tim.  Nice to meet you. :yes:

View PostTim Hebert, on 18 August 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

As far as my knowledge of UFOs?  Unidentified Flying Objects, that is these objects may be initially unidentified, but most can be looked at from a rationale point of view.  Noticed that I said MOST, not all.  I'm rather open mined about the subject, but hold that the default position of every sighting and experience is not always of the ET variety.  I look at probability vs possibility.  BTW that tends to fit for quite a few who post here.

UFO has become too tightly associated with the ETH so I've switched over to UAP (Unknown Aerial Phenomenon) in its place.  This also allows for weather anomalies and the like.  The last figure I saw indicated that 95% of the sightings were eventually explained with rather mundane explanations, including Venus.  The other 5% remains unknown but this does not in any way imply that ET is involved.  It opens the door to the possibility but doesn't automatically imply it.  To my way of thinking, it is incumbent on both sides to provide overwhelming evidence that their side is correct.   If either can, then the unknown becomes known and may be put to rest.  To date, the unknowns remain just that, unknown.

Socorro, which this thread is about, is just such a case.  There are the witness testimonies and a rather small amount of physical evidence but nothing that says whether or not the object was extraterrestrial.  It is an unknown.  Period.

Would I like to know once and for all that ET has arrived and there is a presence here?  Oh, yeah!  If nothing else, it would go a long way toward explaining such things as politicians and Paris Hilton.  (Yeah, I know.  That joke's getting a bit old and I have to find a new one but I kinda like it. :))  A number of the unknowns would become knowns although I believe that some would still remain unknown.  It would change a lot of things worldwide although I have no clue in what way and I believe would be the start of an entirely new era in Earth's history.  In any event, I don't think it'll be boring.  For me personally ... well, I'm still a pilot at heart and I'd love to fly one of their craft.

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#77    SurgeTechnologies

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 12:42 AM

So in 4.5 billion years of Earth's ( just our puny planet, god knows how old is universe ) existence you people will say there was no visitation.. man i guess human race got a special ability now, they can look in the past, can you time travel too? You people are more ignorant than politicians... Do you need evidence to believe in god ( Don't list bible.. .that was written by man )? No you don't you just have faith that someday a sky will crackle up and misterious holy hand will make the world a better place... I strongly believe that we had visitation but we might didn't understand them who or what they were, maybe some races are not in same spectrum that our eyes can detect, maybe they are in whole new dimension but we just can't see them.... maybe a more technologically primitive race came to earth in a UFO kind of vehicle ... We don't understand gravity a force of our own planet and you want to understand Alien races and their technology,..

In my opinion sceptic is only denying a belief nothing more if you don't belive in aliens or that we had alien visitations ( most likely ) it's ok ... there is always god and bigfoot and god knows what.. And you know what if advanced race would visit us don't you think they would know we have radars and telescopes and loads of probably black tehnology so they wouldn't just land infront of your dear White house and say Hi ( they would probably get shot at.... )

So all you people can say "that's a hoax,fake, not real ,whatever " but in the end believers will win if not today,than tommorow,maybe next week,maybe in month or two , maybe it will take years or decades but proof will come if not in paper than from out there..

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#78    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 08:01 AM

There were some interesting samples collected in the 1964 Zamora case, which were sent to NASA.  I know that Dr.Henry Frankel and Goddard Space Flight Center received some of these, which were an unusual zinc-iron alloy.  J. Allen Hynek was aware of all this as well, but we are talking about something that goes far beyond Blue Book here.  

http://books.google....ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA


#79    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 08:05 AM

Dr. Frankel was involved in various government scientific projects going back to World War II, and was an expert on metallurgy.  He died in 2007, but if he follows the usual pattern in these instances, his personal records will contain no UFO information of any kind.

Just think of this as another one of my "helpful hints", for those who are interested in these things.  LOL.

http://www.google.co...3wIfRSbOrcwRSbA


#80    Kludge808

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 08:18 AM

View PostNuke_em, on 19 August 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

Do you need evidence to believe in god ( Don't list bible.. .that was written by man )? No you don't you just have faith that someday a sky will crackle up and misterious holy hand will make the world a better place... I strongly believe that we had visitation but we might didn't understand them who or what they were,

So basically you're saying that religion, which is faith based, and the ETH are the same.  This is the same as saying you are treating UFOs and ET as a religion rather than science.  You need no evidence, just belief.  The interesting part is that I can understand that.

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#81    zoser

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:10 AM

View PostKludge808, on 19 August 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

So basically you're saying that religion, which is faith based, and the ETH are the same.  This is the same as saying you are treating UFOs and ET as a religion rather than science.  You need no evidence, just belief.  The interesting part is that I can understand that.

Kludge there is no need for anyone to relegate the UFO phenomena to faith.  The evidence is manifold, and just a little research is needed.  It's not a faith for me; it's absolutely real, not because I have seen one myself, because others have whom I respect,  and the video evidence that I have seen.

For me respect is a key issue.  I respect the Kids at Ruwa.  I respect the residents in Phoenix, and in the Hudson Valley.  This ties in with the discussion I had with Tim because I feel that the scientist types don't have that same respect. If you watch 'Chasing UFO's' you can see it on the face of Ben McGee.  Don't get me wrong, he's got some good qualities, but condescension is the name of what I am talking about.

Edited by zoser, 19 August 2012 - 10:19 AM.

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#82    Kludge808

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:58 AM

View Postzoser, on 19 August 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

Kludge there is no need for anyone to relegate the UFO phenomena to faith.  The evidence is manifold, and just a little research is needed.  It's not a faith for me; it's absolutely real, not because I have seen one myself, because others have whom I respect,  and the video evidence that I have seen.

Zoser, I think you missed the part earlier (or maybe in the other thread) when I stated I had seen things I could not identify.  I was talking about when I was flying then but I've also seen things while I've been both on the ground and at sea.  The phenomenon is real.  I know this.  Automatically relegating anything unknown to ETH is not realistic in my opinion.  Read what I said to Tim Hebert to get a clearer understanding of my position.

The problem I had with Nuke_em's post is that he is accepting ET presence on faith alone.  This is how one does a religion and this is not a religion but a quest for knowledge.

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#83    zoser

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 11:13 AM

View PostKludge808, on 19 August 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

Zoser, I think you missed the part earlier (or maybe in the other thread) when I stated I had seen things I could not identify.  I was talking about when I was flying then but I've also seen things while I've been both on the ground and at sea.  The phenomenon is real.  I know this.  Automatically relegating anything unknown to ETH is not realistic in my opinion.  Read what I said to Tim Hebert to get a clearer understanding of my position.

The problem I had with Nuke_em's post is that he is accepting ET presence on faith alone.  This is how one does a religion and this is not a religion but a quest for knowledge.

So if they are not ET craft what do you think they are?

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#84    Tim Hebert

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 05:53 PM

Kludge808: "Hi, Tim.  Nice to meet you. :yes: "

Nice to meet you too.  I like your use of the term UAP.  I still use "UFO" since most identify with it but freely admit that it can cause confusion regarding the making of distinctions.

I see that you were, or still, a pilot?  What type of aircraft did you fly?  I only flew as "cargo" in the back of a Huey to and from the missile sites.  We broke no air speed records in that old bird.

Best Regards,

Tim


#85    Kludge808

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 08:19 PM

View Postzoser, on 19 August 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

So if they are not ET craft what do you think they are?

Unknown.  There is no overwhelming evidence to say positively they are or aren't of extraterrestrial origin.

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#86    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 08:59 PM

View PostKludge808, on 19 August 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Unknown.  There is no overwhelming evidence to say positively they are or aren't of extraterrestrial origin.

At least, this type of evidence very rarely makes it into the public domain.


#87    Kludge808

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 09:16 PM

View PostTim Hebert, on 19 August 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

Nice to meet you too.  I like your use of the term UAP.  I still use "UFO" since most identify with it but freely admit that it can cause confusion regarding the making of distinctions.

That's a large part of the reason I prefer it.  Another part is that it allows for weather anomalies and the like.  The Zamora case is one I can see as a flying object that is as of yet unidentified a opposed to the hoax Bragalia claims or some unknown weather phenomenon.  TheMacGuffin has offered some information as to some of the physical evidence which goes far toward helping with what it wasn't but not so much with what it was.

Quote

I see that you were, or still, a pilot?  What type of aircraft did you fly?  I only flew as "cargo" in the back of a Huey to and from the missile sites.  We broke no air speed records in that old bird.

The UH-1 and its civilian counterparts are decent machines with a very good reputation.  The fact that it's based on a 1952 design and it's still in service says a lot for it.   It's in good company though.  The C-130 and B-52 are both from that era as well.

I was a civilian pilot but got grounded on 1976 on a medical.  (I've had medical issues all my life and had to get waivers to join the Navy, get my flight physical and later my CDL physical.)  I've got over 1000 hours in a wide assortment of aircraft including 90+ in the T-37* and 3 or so in the T-33.  On top of that I've got 150-200 simulator hours including around 20 each in the DC-9 and Boeing 737 simulators that USAir had/has.  When I got grounded was just after I decided it was time for me to go past being a Private Pilot to something a bit more challenging which was Commercial (which included Instrument) and multi-engine.  All at the same time.  And, no, I am not a masochist! :wacko:

* I considered selling my soul to Cessna to get type certified in the Tweet since it was such a blast to fly.  Talk about a chick-magnet. ;)

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 19 August 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

At least, this type of evidence very rarely makes it into the public domain.

Good point.

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#88    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:33 PM

Col. William Coleman once said that the compression tests for the Zamora UFO found that it weighed about 60 tons, which of course was much heavier than a hot air balloon and could not have easily been hoaxed.  Then Dr. Frankel found an unknown metal alloy in samples from the site.

I don't know whether the UFO came from outer space or somewhere much closer, but it was an unknown and unconventional object of some kind.

Coleman also said that Zamora got razzed quite a bit in town after his sighting, and quit the police force two years later because of it, but he never changed his story.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 19 August 2012 - 10:44 PM.


#89    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:33 AM

As to what type of flying object weighs 60 tons and is made of a very unusual alloy, your guess is as good as mine, friends and neighbors, but Zamora was telling the truth the whole time about the very unusual nature of the thing he saw.

Where did it come from?  Why was it here?  I wish I knew.  I wish I could tell you that I had the answers to the really important questions like those, but I don't.  I just don't.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 20 August 2012 - 02:35 AM.


#90    Kludge808

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:26 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 20 August 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:

As to what type of flying object weighs 60 tons and is made of a very unusual alloy, your guess is as good as mine, friends and neighbors, but Zamora was telling the truth the whole time about the very unusual nature of the thing he saw.

Where did it come from?  Why was it here?  I wish I knew.  I wish I could tell you that I had the answers to the really important questions like those, but I don't.  I just don't.

Nor does anyone else.  I agree that Officer Zamora was being completely honest and that the physical evidence & witness testimony back him up.  That is a huge part of what makes this case so utterly fascinating.

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