237 replies to this topic

[Hazzard]

Babe Ruth, on 21 June 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

No, there is no end to the silliness some believe.

For example, folks will happily believe certain accounts told by a government well known for its mendacity.

Even though a government lies about UFOs, lies about WMD, lies about CPI (through false accounting), lies about how certain people's deaths, lies about virtually everything, many folks place absolute faith in statements of that government regarding the events of a certain day, even though the evidence contradicts government press releases.

Yeah, great question you raise---why do so many folks place absolute faith in the statements of known liars?

I respect your lack of trust in governments. God knows what secrets they are keeping from the public.

But, there are other ways to reality, you know?

As for my post about the 911 being an inside job, or the claim that  people lived longer 2000 years ago, people with psychic powers and Aliens visiting our planet,... well, I see no credible evidence of any of that.

[TheMcGuffin]

Babe Ruth, on 21 June 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

No, there is no end to the silliness some believe.

For example, folks will happily believe certain accounts told by a government well known for its mendacity.

Even though a government lies about UFOs, lies about WMD, lies about CPI (through false accounting), lies about how certain people's deaths, lies about virtually everything, many folks place absolute faith in statements of that government regarding the events of a certain day, even though the evidence contradicts government press releases.

Babe Ruth is perfectly correct that governments have lied and covered up a great deal about UFOs, and that has been proven a million times over.  I could sit hit all day, every day offering tons of evidence about that, contrasting what they said in public compared to what they were saying and doing behind the scenes, and have done so many times.

There's no point in trying to prove that over and over again, because people who will not believe all the evidence that I any many others have provided over the years are simply being willfully obtuse, but governments do lie about UFOs.

That said, I don't have anything to add about the Phoenix Lights, which I have never thought were just lights or flares, and were not seen only in Phoenix.  I have no doubt that flares were being used that night, and that our aircraft were in the air, but also that something more unusual and unconventional was flying around at the same time, something that is probably still classified.

Whether it was "ours" or "theirs" is likely something we'll never know, but if it was ours, then they must have wanted lots of people to see it and react to it for some reason.

Edited by TheMcGuffin, 21 June 2012 - 02:15 PM.

[ThickasaBrick]

Same things that have been said many times. What about the witnesses who swear it was planes and flares? Is their testimony false just because it disagrees with the UFO theory? In order to find truth you must look at all sides. If presented with only half the information you are only half-informed and if you don't try to find the other half of the story you have no interest in the truth, just your opinions.

[Hazzard]

A UFO to some, a flying kitty to others.

[cenobite]

TheMcGuffin, on 21 June 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

Babe Ruth is perfectly correct that governments have lied and covered up a great deal about UFOs, and that has been proven a million times over.  I could sit hit all day, every day offering tons of evidence about that, contrasting what they said in public compared to what they were saying and doing behind the scenes, and have done so many times.

There's no point in trying to prove that over and over again, because people who will not believe all the evidence that I any many others have provided over the years are simply being willfully obtuse, but governments do lie about UFOs.

That said, I don't have anything to add about the Phoenix Lights, which I have never thought were just lights or flares, and were not seen only in Phoenix.  I have no doubt that flares were being used that night, and that our aircraft were in the air, but also that something more unusual and unconventional was flying around at the same time, something that is probably still classified.

Whether it was "ours" or "theirs" is likely something we'll never know, but if it was ours, then they must have wanted lots of people to see it and react to it for some reason.

here you go again,it has NOT been proven a million times over,if it had we would not be discussing it here, you are talking rubbish, its easy to say you could offer proof yet when asked to do so you do not, of course governments and military keep new and experimental craft secret, but that is not the same as lying to us about UFO's. you live in a fantasy world my friend

[Babe Ruth]

One can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make him drink.  One can lay it all out for a man, but you cannot make him think.

Those who see themselves as mere skeptics in this UFO matter appear to some of us as mere government apologists, for it is the government that has lied, flip-flopped and obfuscated basically since the Roswell incident.

Certainly every man is entitled to his own opinion, and while it cannot be proved either way in this UFO controversy, it is safe to say that the preponderance of the evidence, by a vast margin, is that the government deliberately covers up the truth.  The logical conclusion is that the truth has something to do with alien intelligence and presence, long before Roswell.

[quillius]

cenobite, on 21 June 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

here you go again,it has NOT been proven a million times over,if it had we would not be discussing it here, you are talking rubbish, its easy to say you could offer proof yet when asked to do so you do not, of course governments and military keep new and experimental craft secret, but that is not the same as lying to us about UFO's. you live in a fantasy world my friend

so just to confirm, this government/military you say keep new and secret craft secret, is this the same unintelligent bunch that cant keep a secret,  as you have proven (in your fantasy world) earlier??!?!?

Im confused can they or cant they keep secrets? or does it depend on the debate?

[Slave2Fate]

quillius, on 21 June 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

so just to confirm, this government/military you say keep new and secret craft secret, is this the same unintelligent bunch that cant keep a secret,  as you have proven (in your fantasy world) earlier??!?!?

Im confused can they or cant they keep secrets? or does it depend on the debate?

In my opinion secret aircraft which are developed and tested in remote locations away from prying eyes and UFO's which are apparently in plain sight for everyone to see are secrets of quite differing magnitudes.

[quillius]

Slave2Fate, on 21 June 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

In my opinion secret aircraft which are developed and tested in remote locations away from prying eyes and UFO's which are apparently in plain sight for everyone to see are secrets of quite differing magnitudes.

yes true, but any 'potential evidence' would also be in remote locations away from prying eyes.

[cenobite]

quillius, on 21 June 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

so just to confirm, this government/military you say keep new and secret craft secret, is this the same unintelligent bunch that cant keep a secret,  as you have proven (in your fantasy world) earlier??!?!?

Im confused can they or cant they keep secrets? or does it depend on the debate?

and again dont be obtuse, just in case you hadn't noticed this is the SAME debate. i'll lay it out simply so you can understand

1.governments do have secrets BUT they do not remain secrets forever.
2. yesterday you agreed with me that government/military are stupid, so what exactly is your point here, why do you keep bringing this up?
3. there are secrets and there are secrets, keeping a new/experimental craft or piece of hardware secret is VERY different to a worldwide conspiracy to keep the existence of aliens from us all.
4. just like you i have proven nothing neither do i claim to
5.fantasy world? explain.. I am not the one who believes in aliens and conspiracy theories

[Slave2Fate]

quillius, on 21 June 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

yes true, but any 'potential evidence' would also be in remote locations away from prying eyes.

Yes, however you'd have to buy into the idea that there is a government agency always at the ready to respond to each and every UFO encounter to retrieve and/or 'cover up' the incident all without a hitch like photo's, video's or more tangible forms of evidence falling into the hands of witnesses. I'm not sure I could envision such a thing. Not so much that the government is too inept (which I believe they are to some extent) but human nature would have won out a long time ago in my opinion. Yes, there have been 'whistle blowers' but have they contributed anything substantial like physical evidence or blown the lid off of some conspiracy? Or have they just had a few minutes of fame with some book sales to their name? I don't know, It doesn't make sense to me that the government could be hiding something like alien visitation. UFO's in general though (not necessarily ET related) sure, they probably have quite a few unreleased incidents stashed away somewhere but that still doesn't imply some sort of conspiracy.

*Edit* I forgot to mention the world wide collaborative effort between all governments if such a conspiracy is to be believed. Makes it even harder, if not impossible to believe in my opinion.

Edited by Slave2Fate, 21 June 2012 - 09:01 PM.

[cenobite]

Babe Ruth, on 21 June 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

One can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make him drink.  One can lay it all out for a man, but you cannot make him think.

Those who see themselves as mere skeptics in this UFO matter appear to some of us as mere government apologists, for it is the government that has lied, flip-flopped and obfuscated basically since the Roswell incident.

Certainly every man is entitled to his own opinion, and while it cannot be proved either way in this UFO controversy, it is safe to say that the preponderance of the evidence, by a vast margin, is that the government deliberately covers up the truth. The logical conclusion is that the truth has something to do with alien intelligence and presence, long before Roswell.

logical? please explain

[quillius]

cenobite, on 21 June 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

and again dont be obtuse, just in case you hadn't noticed this is the SAME debate. i'll lay it out simply so you can understand

I had noticed (or is that more sarcasm?) and yes please do lay it out for me..lets see how that pans out

cenobite, on 21 June 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

1.governments do have secrets BUT they do not remain secrets forever.

agreed...forever is a long time though

cenobite, on 21 June 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

2. yesterday you agreed with me that government/military are stupid, so what exactly is your point here, why do you keep bringing this up?

no I never!!! please do show where I agreed with you.

cenobite, on 21 June 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

3. there are secrets and there are secrets, keeping a new/experimental craft or piece of hardware secret is VERY different to a worldwide conspiracy to keep the existence of aliens from us all

worldwide? who said worldwide? if a part of the government back in the 50's truly believed (or had evidence of ET) then it wouldnt be difficult to hide this, especially if it was a belief based on a misinterpretation of what was being seen.

cenobite, on 21 June 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

4. just like you i have proven nothing neither do i claim to

ok, so your point is??

cenobite, on 21 June 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

5.fantasy world? explain.. I am not the one who believes in aliens and conspiracy theories

you have only proved Governments are unintelligent and cant keep secrets (proved only in your fantasy world as you have shown no proof here)

[quillius]

Slave2Fate, on 21 June 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

Yes, however you'd have to buy into the idea that there is a government agency always at the ready to respond to each and every UFO encounter to retrieve and/or 'cover up' the incident all without a hitch like photo's, video's or more tangible forms of evidence falling into the hands of witnesses. I'm not sure I could envision such a thing. Not so much that the government is too inept (which I believe they are to some extent) but human nature would have won out a long time ago in my opinion. Yes, there have been 'whistle blowers' but have they contributed anything substantial like physical evidence or blown the lid off of some conspiracy? Or have they just had a few minutes of fame with some book sales to their name? I don't know, It doesn't make sense to me that the government could be hiding something like alien visitation. UFO's in general though (not necessarily ET related) sure, they probably have quite a few unreleased incidents stashed away somewhere but that still doesn't imply some sort of conspiracy.

*Edit* I forgot to mention the world wide collaborative effort between all governments if such a conspiracy is to be believed. Makes it even harder, if not impossible to believe in my opinion.

I dont think it needs to be either worldwide or current. If only a few either knew or believed they knew that some UFOs (maybe a particular type) were extraterrestrial then I think this would explain cover ups (at least some that were true cover ups). Granted they may have been covering up UAP's for example, convinced this was ET, but I dont see why it needs to every UFO required jets to be scrambled or that it wasnt only one or two events that gave them the proof.

Maybe the physical evidence is lacking and a full blown finger pointing whistleblow is beyond a lot of these gentlemen who had integrity through their careers and battle to get out what they know/believe they know.

[cenobite]

747400, on 20 June 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

No disrespect Quill, but surely you wouldn't argue with that assessment?

quillius, on 20 June 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

sadly I do 747400.....

quillius, on 21 June 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

I had noticed (or is that more sarcasm?) and yes please do lay it out for me..lets see how that pans out



agreed...forever is a long time though



no I never!!! please do show where I agreed with you.


worldwide? who said worldwide? if a part of the government back in the 50's truly believed (or had evidence of ET) then it wouldnt be difficult to hide this, especially if it was a belief based on a misinterpretation of what was being seen.



ok, so your point is??



you have only proved Governments are unintelligent and cant keep secrets (proved only in your fantasy world as you have shown no proof here)

as i have said before, i have not proven anything neither do i claim to
and again fantasy world explain? i am no t the one who believes in aliens or conspiracy theories