34 replies to this topic

[Rlyeh]

Seeker79, on 03 December 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

Yes they are, but to have a memory of it there must be an interaction with the brain. There is no way around this. If NDEs happen outside of the body then there must be a douwnload of the info to the brain... We are now talking about the samething in two threads.

Consciousness survives death but memory doesn't?

Quote

Obviously you were not unaware if haveing an NDE.  Not remembering is not the samething as not aware. People do not remember events leading up to trauma, that dies nit mean they were unaware at the time. The question is if you need the brain to be aware or not.

However if you don't have a NDE, then you were unaware?

[Seeker79]

Rlyeh, on 03 December 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:

Consciousness survives death but memory doesn't?

However if you don't have a NDE, then you were unaware?

I think it does. This is purely philisophicsl now, but I think the information that is you is recorded in another fashion. Imprinted upon another framework for a mind. Potentially a universal conciousness providing the "space" for an immaterial spirit realm. Not totally unlike how a computer provides the "space" for vr realms or your brain provides the "space" for dreamscapes.

Certainly for there to be memory articulated here in the physical realm it will need a physical storage tool. ( the brain)

Like I said. My guess is that everyone has NDEs, but only a certain percentage remember them.  Certainly a certain percentage has them but does die, so they cannot articulate them, and it's not unreasonable to assume that at least some people have them but do not remember. This makes the actual number of NDEs very understated.

[Rlyeh]

Seeker79, on 03 December 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

Like I said. My guess is that everyone has NDEs, but only a certain percentage remember them.  Certainly a certain percentage has them but does die, so they cannot articulate them, and it's not unreasonable to assume that at least some people have them but do not remember. This makes the actual number of NDEs very understated.

If you have a NDE, then you were aware, if not then you just don't remember it but you still had a NDE.

Can you not see the problem in this reasoning? You've presented a way to determine awareness after death, then ignore it in the opposite scenario.

[Seeker79]

Rlyeh, on 03 December 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

If you have a NDE, then you were aware, if not then you just don't remember it but you still had a NDE.

Can you not see the problem in this reasoning? You've presented a way to determine awareness after death, then ignore it in the opposite scenario.

Aware of what? A spirit world?

You are assuming the conclusion again. The whole astonishing thing is that countless NDErs apear to be aware when they should not. Not just a few.

There is no way to tell if it cannot be articulated. Those are merely logical guses.

Edited by Seeker79, 03 December 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[Rlyeh]

Seeker79, on 03 December 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

Aware of what? A spirit world?

Awareness.

Quote

You are assuming the conclusion again. The whole astonishing thing is that countless NDErs apear to be aware when they should not. Not just a few.

There is no way to tell if it cannot be articulated. Those are merely logical guses.

Are you really unable to see that double standard you have created?
NDEs therefore awareness after death, the opposite logically is no NDE therefore no awareness. You've gone and ignored your original reasoning in order to keep up the conclusion of awareness after death.  
This is called confirmation bias.

Edited by Rlyeh, 03 December 2012 - 04:35 PM.

[Seeker79]

Rlyeh, on 03 December 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

Awareness.

Are you really unable to see that double standard you have created?
NDEs therefore awareness after death, the opposite logically is no NDE therefore no awareness. You've gone and ignored your original reasoning in order to keep up the conclusion of awareness after death.  
This is called confirmation bias.

Not at all. I am aware that An NDE may have occurred, just not remembered. There is every reason to allow room for this.

Edited by Seeker79, 03 December 2012 - 05:21 PM.

[Rlyeh]

Seeker79, on 03 December 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

Not at all. I am aware that An NDE may have occurred, just not remembered. There is every reason to allow room for this.

So confirmation bias it is.

[Seeker79]

Rlyeh, on 03 December 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

So confirmation bias it is.

Ok... That's not quite right, but if that is CB, then you are guilty aswell.

Using common sense and logic to deduce a non mathmathmatical probability is not confirmation bias. It may not be true... There might be other variables...

[Magicjax]

A question comes to mind. Ok, we have a dream. We can't anolyze that dream until we are awake/conscious.

Is an NDE (light/tunnel) simply their perception of the dream after they've regained consciousness? When their conscious mind attempts to make sense or recall their dream?

[Arbenol68]

Seeker79, on 03 December 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

Like I said. My guess is that everyone has NDEs, but only a certain percentage remember them.  Certainly a certain percentage has them but does die, so they cannot articulate them,

There's no way you can know this. It's entirely possible that the only people who have NDEs are those that survive. If someone dies (permanently) it may be that they don't experience NDEs - either way it's unknowable.

You could ask a psychic, I suppose.

[Seeker79]

Arbenol68, on 03 December 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

There's no way you can know this.

Of course there is no way to know this unless one can talk to the dead . But the smart guy that you are, are you going to really sit there and tell me that it's not probable that those that die do not experience the same range of phenomenon that those that are marginal but don't.

[Arbenol68]

Seeker79, on 04 December 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

Of course there is no way to know this unless one can talk to the dead . But the smart guy that you are, are you going to really sit there and tell me that it's not probable that those that die do not experience the same range of phenomenon that those that are marginal but don't.

It's possible ('probable' may be a bit of a stretch). But as such, it's a hypothesis. And an untestable one at that. As I wrote, it's also possible that only survivors have NDEs - which is also an untestable hypothesis.

So, the discussion is speculative. Interesting, but not likely to lead us any nearer the truth. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I see NDEs as a natural phenomenon, because I feel that to be the most parsimonious explanation.

But, the smart guy that I am, I'll defer absolute judgment until it's my turn.

[Seeker79]

Arbenol68, on 04 December 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

It's possible ('probable' may be a bit of a stretch). But as such, it's a hypothesis. And an untestable one at that. As I wrote, it's also possible that only survivors have NDEs - which is also an untestable hypothesis.

So, the discussion is speculative. Interesting, but not likely to lead us any nearer the truth. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I see NDEs as a natural phenomenon, because I feel that to be the most parsimonious explanation.

But, the smart guy that I am, I'll defer absolute judgment until it's my turn.

Hehehe and that you shall have my friend along with taxes.

But I don't think it's even a stretch. It's quite obvious those that did die probably passed through many of the same stages that those that almost died. No reason what so ever to think that at least a similar percentage of those Did not have similar experiences. But you are right, it's untestable.... at least ethically untestable.  I'm sure the Nazies could have come up with something.

Edited by Seeker79, 04 December 2012 - 07:14 AM.

[Sean93]

I'd love an NDE, Well, the one were a lot of people see themselves going through the universe and out to the multi-verse, maybe I could get onto another planet...

I also don't see how people could forget a NDE,  they're supposed to be these amazing, life altering and very real experiences fill with mad and wonderful imagery but some don't remember having them? That's adds to my skepticism of them being anything other than natural phenomena. Ever notice as well how a good number of people who visit Heaven/Hell etc. write books about it, making a nice price in the process, that's almost as annoying as shops that sell bibles, Quar'an's etc...sells them. "The word of God can be yours for £9.99" What I'm saying is, if these experiences are genuine and over whelming, why out a ******* price tag on them?

One idea though that convinces me of NDE's is that, considering we all comes from Stars in the universe, all of the key ingredients that build us up, Hydrogen, Carbon etc come from stars. The stars come from within the universe and so in essence, we're part of the universe. One of the theories about NDE's is that our consciousness and what makes us, being part of the universe, is released when we die and returns to the universe. There's more to this theory and it's pretty interesting.

Kinda' cool as well, I was reading Hindu NDE's and they seem to follow a certain pattern - being led by two or three guys in cloaks, brought it a gate and told "I asked you to bring me 'Name' not this person. They are then returned back to their bodies and that's it, whereas Westerners seem to get the bad ass universe thing, well some of 'em anyway. Some people even claim to be given healing abilities and psychic abilities... what is this a Marvel Comic FFS?

I might just pull a Dr House someday, A.K.A, stick a knife into a plug socket when beside someone so when I'm out, I'll see what the deal is. I'll let you all know if I get back.

Edited by Sean93, 05 December 2012 - 02:36 PM.

[Seeker79]

Sean93, on 05 December 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

I'd love an NDE, Well, the one were a lot of people see themselves going through the universe and out to the multi-verse, maybe I could get onto another planet...

I also don't see how people could forget a NDE,  they're supposed to be these amazing, life altering and very real experiences fill with mad and wonderful imagery but some don't remember having them? That's adds to my skepticism of them being anything other than natural phenomena. Ever notice as well how a good number of people who visit Heaven/Hell etc. write books about it, making a nice price in the process, that's almost as annoying as shops that sell bibles, Quar'an's etc...sells them. "The word of God can be yours for £9.99" What I'm saying is, if these experiences are genuine and over whelming, why out a ******* price tag on them?

One idea though that convinces me of NDE's is that, considering we all comes from Stars in the universe, all of the key ingredients that build us up, Hydrogen, Carbon etc come from stars. The stars come from within the universe and so in essence, we're part of the universe. One of the theories about NDE's is that our consciousness and what makes us, being part of the universe, is released when we die and returns to the universe. There's more to this theory and it's pretty interesting.

Kinda' cool as well, I was reading Hindu NDE's and they seem to follow a certain pattern - being led by two or three guys in cloaks, brought it a gate and told "I asked you to bring me 'Name' not this person. They are then returned back to their bodies and that's it, whereas Westerners seem to get the bad ass universe thing, well some of 'em anyway. Some people even claim to be given healing abilities and psychic abilities... what is this a Marvel Comic FFS?

I might just pull a Dr House someday, A.K.A, stick a knife into a plug socket when beside someone so when I'm out, I'll see what the deal is. I'll let you all know if I get back.

There is nothing wrong with writing books. A well marketed book is a wonderful way to spread a message. In order to get it out to the most people, people must be paid, you would be surprised at how little of that 9.99 the auther actually gets.

Hydrogen does not come from stars, but yes there are a vast mysteries that abound. Plenty of room for ultimate conciousness.