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When Is It Excessive Force Anymore?


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#31    Kriegermonch

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:36 PM

View PostEuphorbia, on 09 October 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

Maybe because he was a human being! Without a toxicology report we don't know what or if he was on anything. Again, why shoot to kill? This is just another story as to why law enforcement is dealing with a lot of scrutiny these days. Cops that use excessive force are being videotaped all of the time and many cops are getting fired for it. If the campus video proves that this was his only option then so be it, but I haven't seen it and I don't know if the video has even been released to the public....

I understand where you are coming from. Honestly, I do. But you are making a judgement from the saftey of your home or workspace about the actions of an officer who was doing his best under extreme duress to try and stop this man without deadly force, but was unfortunately unable to do so. It's a shame, but it's what happened.

Also, "shooting to wound" isn't a real thing. No law enforcement agency uses this as standard practice that I know of.


#32    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:43 PM

View PostRafterman, on 09 October 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

I always wonder about these types of discussions in that I have a strong feeling that the same folks talking about non-lethal options would be the some ones screaming if the kid had been tazered.

As far as the kid being naked, I seem to recall that the "face eater" down in Miami was naked and took multiple rounds before he stopped eating the other guy.

Oh, i missed the bit in the article where is said he was eating another human. As far as i can tell he was threatening a police officer by "charging" naked at him. I am pretty sure that shouldn't be a crime punishable by death, but i don't live in that society. Each to their own.


#33    and then

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:47 PM

http://www2.wkrg.com...ugs-ar-4716671/

They think it was LSD.

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#34    Euphorbia

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:48 PM

View PostMaestro, on 09 October 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

I understand where you are coming from. Honestly, I do. But you are making a judgement from the saftey of your home or workspace about the actions of an officer who was doing his best under extreme duress to try and stop this man without deadly force, but was unfortunately unable to do so. It's a shame, but it's what happened.

And your judgement is better? How do you know the "officer was doing his best"? Have you seen the video? It might clear up a lot of things!

Quote

Also, "shooting to wound" isn't a real thing. No law enforcement agency uses this as standard practice that I know of.

Maybe it should become standard practice for certain situations......it might cut down on unnecessary deaths!

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My mistake, four coffins.

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#35    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:56 PM

View Postand then, on 09 October 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:


Why are drugged up people trying to bite/eat others all the time? Even when on LSD instead of bath salts


#36    Merc14

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:08 PM

View PostEuphorbia, on 09 October 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

If he had time to retreat several times, why didn't he retreat back into the building and/or call for backup?
....and good luck to the poor female student that happened to walk by while this naked lunatic, high on bathsalts or PCP ran around outside until back up came.  "Mr. and Mrs. Jones, we are truly sorry your daughter got her face eaten off and her throat torn out but we didn't want to shoot a naked, unarmed man....at least not until he harmed someone."   Does that make more sense to you?

Edited by Merc14, 09 October 2012 - 07:09 PM.

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#37    Euphorbia

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:18 PM

View PostMerc14, on 09 October 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

....and good luck to the poor female student that happened to walk by while this naked lunatic, high on bathsalts or PCP ran around outside until back up came.  "Mr. and Mrs. Jones, we are truly sorry your daughter got her face eaten off and her throat torn out but we didn't want to shoot a naked, unarmed man....at least not until he harmed someone."   Does that make more sense to you?

That was a pretty lame post!

Do you have any more stories that have absolutely nothing to do with this particular case?

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#38    Kriegermonch

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:18 PM

View PostEuphorbia, on 09 October 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

And your judgement is better? How do you know the "officer was doing his best"? Have you seen the video? It might clear up a lot of things!

I believe my judgement is better, yes. I have not seen the video. I believe that a man who gives multiple warnings, does his duty to retreat and tries to diffuse the situation through peacable actions, does not sound untrained or trigger happy. It sounds like he did his best to try and calm a clearly disturbed suspect, was repeatedly attacked, and when he was eventually under duress enough to believe that his life was in danger, he defended himself in the best and most effective manner he had at his disposal.

And don't forget, an officer who shoots a suspect is a normal human being. Probably just wants to get home to his wife and kids at the end of the day. I am not going to try and judge whether or not he had reason to believe that he was in mortal danger.

Edited by Maestro, 09 October 2012 - 07:20 PM.


#39    Euphorbia

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:30 PM

View PostMaestro, on 09 October 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

I believe my judgement is better, yes. I have not seen the video. I believe that a man who gives multiple warnings, does his duty to retreat and tries to diffuse the situation through peacable actions, does not sound untrained or trigger happy. It sounds like he did his best to try and calm a clearly disturbed suspect, was repeatedly attacked, and when he was eventually under duress enough to believe that his life was in danger, he defended himself in the best and most effective manner he had at his disposal.

And don't forget, an officer who shoots a suspect is a normal human being. Probably just wants to get home to his wife and kids at the end of the day. I am not going to try and judge whether or not he had reason to believe that he was in mortal danger.

Why is your judgement better? Just because?

Nobody has answered the question as to why the officer didn't call for backup and/or retreat back into the building. And I don't want assumptions, but real answers. This would clear up a lot of things for me.....

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#40    Rut Roh

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:36 PM

View PostCradle of Fish, on 09 October 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

I know scrawny people who could put you into an arm or wrist lock quite easily because they have the know how. Police officers are expected to be in good shape are they not? A couple of Jiujitsu moves and this kid could have been pinned to the ground with no means of biting or scratching. If diseases were the worry then why would you opt for the weapon that splatters blood everywhere?

It's all moot anyway. Who are we to say that the call he made was the right or the wrong one? We don't have the full story and it's not like the media would ever report it anyway. Maybe the kid was suicidal and wanted the cop to shoot him. Maybe he was a serious drug addict scumbag who 'deserved' it or maybe he was just a dumb kid who took a hit of something and wound up paying for it with his life. We can't change what happened and we can't judge the situation based on a tidbit of news.

What we can do is debate whether or not a similar situation could be avoided in the future. It doesn't help to say 'what if he was diseased?' because, if you haven't noticed, police get spat on, scratched and bitten all the time. It is a risk inherent in the job. I don't know what kind of training the police in the United States recieve, which is why I asked. One thing we do know is that if the officer did manage to disable the kid he would still be alive. Does anyone here not think that would be a better outcome?

As a practicing judo/jui jitsu player I can honestly say that adrenaline alone is enough to overcome a "wrist" or "arm" lock that has been executed to completion.  Completion being popping the joint.  Pain is something that only works on the willing or fearful.  With an adrenaline dump going through someones system alone you are just as likely to piss them off as you are hurt them.  Now lets add possible narcotic use on top of a situation and jui jitsu is a mute point and should only be attempted when the distance has been closed and is your LAST resort.  UFC has rules the street doesn't.  Subduing anyone hand to hand, regardless of size, is hard enough without the aid of a narcotic that will dull the senses and hence nullify pain as a reason for them to stop.  Also, hard to apply said wrist or arm lock when someone is biting you.  Again, rules are only for the ring.  Hell, I fought for 4 minutes with a very dislocated shoulder on adrenaline alone.  Didn't realize the severity of the injury until I walked off the mat and the pain kicked in within a couple of minutes.

Now, I agree with waiting for more info to come out to pass judgement, but it goes both ways.  You cannot just assume the police overreacted to the situation and just popped off a cap to feel all manly about himself just like anyone else can't assume that the police didn't possibly over reach with the reaction.  But unlike some, I tend to be a bit more lenient toward the officer, in cases like these, because of the aggravating factor of possible narcotics use.

As for law enforcement training, the one thing I took from the academy that was numero uno on the list was officer safety.  Hand to hand engagement is not about safety as much as it is about survival.  If you have to use it, something along the way went wrong.  Let me ask you this, if the officer in question goes through 2 or 3 different non-lethal weapons trying to subdue the suspect and he/she is walking through them, what is the officer supposed to do?  What happens if an innocent bystander gets attacked because he/she was walking by while the officer is trying said tactics to no avail?  Is it still the officers fault either way?  It is real easy to Monday morning quarterback a situation the next day and not take into account all the variables that are current at the scene.  Context is everything in these matters.


#41    Dredimus

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:37 PM

View PostEuphorbia, on 09 October 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

If he had time to retreat several times, why didn't he retreat back into the building and/or call for backup?


You do realize this happened AT the police station right? There were multiple officers on the scene.

Quote

So shoot to kill to keep them from suing you? Do all police officers have this point of view?

Yes... Aiming for center mass is the basic of every agency be it military, police, security or even FBI, CIA, NSA, NCIS... any acronym you can throw out there. Its also standard teachings for civilians who go through hand gun ownership and use classes. And as I said, its not shoot to kill, its shoot to stop.



Now, more details are coming out about what actually happened...

Quote

He says Collar assaulted two couples in cars on campus.  He says the victims claim Collar tried to bite a woman’s arm while being punched by another person in the car.  From there the sheriff says Collar approached the USA Campus Police office and began banging loudly on the door—trying to break the window.  He says the officers inside didn’t know what was happening and Officer Trevis Austin exited the building with his service weapon drawn.  

Its linked a few post back.


#42    Dredimus

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:41 PM

View PostEuphorbia, on 09 October 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

Why is your judgement better? Just because?

Nobody has answered the question as to why the officer didn't call for backup and/or retreat back into the building. And I don't want assumptions, but real answers. This would clear up a lot of things for me.....

As stated above, there were already other officers aware and there. However, even if this officer had been alone, what would him retreating into the building have caused? You have a definately beligerant suspect, naked and running around the campus who has already tried to harm a police officer. If this guy had been allowed to continue, what else could he have done? Moving into an enclosed building would have given the suspect time to break away into any direction... and with his lack of regard for any type of authority... imagine the possibilities of injury/death.


#43    Kriegermonch

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 08:15 PM

View PostEuphorbia, on 09 October 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

Why is your judgement better? Just because?

Nobody has answered the question as to why the officer didn't call for backup and/or retreat back into the building. And I don't want assumptions, but real answers. This would clear up a lot of things for me.....

I believe my judgement is better because your posts show you lack a fundamental understanding of how both violent conflicts happen, and how police officers respond to violent suspects.


#44    Euphorbia

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 08:31 PM

View PostMaestro, on 09 October 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

I believe my judgement is better because your posts show you lack a fundamental understanding of how both violent conflicts happen, and how police officers respond to violent suspects.

Believe what you want......I'll wait for a full report on this shooting.

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#45    Kazoo

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 08:43 PM

View PostHasina, on 09 October 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

Cause I'd totally go toe to toe with a nude man who may be high out of his mind and let him get within range to bite, scratch or spit in my face. Good thing cops are immune to any sexually transmitted diseases or any disease for that matter, eh?

To be completely honest I would risk contracting a disease to save someones life. I would hope most people would.

I'm not sure if the force was necessary. Maybe. Maybe not. I don't have the proper information to say.

Edited by Kazoo, 09 October 2012 - 08:43 PM.

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all." - H.L. Mencken




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