Puma Punku

[The Word of Thoth]

They are arguably the oldest, and most baffling ruins on the face of the Earth. It is hard to imagine how they did not come to be known as one of the wonders of the world like the Great Pyramid. Spectacular in its own right, the Great Pyramid is, yet it pales in comparison to the ruins of Puma Punku in Tiahuanaco, in South America.

The ruins of Puma Punku are one of four structures in the ancient city of Tiahuanaco. The others three structures are; The Akapana Pyramid, the Kalasasaya Platform, and the Subterranean Temple.

Even with modern day technology and information, these structures defy logic, and confound those who seek to solve the mysteries that lie within them. The ruins of Puma Punku are said to be the most fascinating, and most confusing of all.

Who built these structures?

How were these structures built?

Why were these structures built?

These are all questions on the minds of those researching these ancient structures, and they are not easily answerable, if they can even be answered at all.

[The Word of Thoth]

Apologies, forgot to put the link in:

http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_6.htm

My bad...again!

[Harte]

Certainly not the oldest.

Harte

[Abramelin]

Sorry Toth, but this is what most here will say/think.... USE THE SEARCH BUTTON.

You think you started something new.... but this has been discussed to the point of puking.

"Ad nauseum" as those Roman perverts loved to call it.

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

This is the first I have seen this. I need to research now.

[tipotep]

I have read about these ruins before - they approximate that they are 17,000 years old - this im unsure of as they dont go into much details on how they got to 17,000 years ?

http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_6.htm

Does anyone know if they have done carbon dating etc on the site ?

TIP.

EDIT - I found this ...

"Carbon-14 Dating puts the first period of Tiahuanaco back to 1,700 BC, the second period to 360 BC, and the third era from 133-374 AD to 1,200 AD "

http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/Boliviatiahuanaco.htm

Seems that an extra "0" was added somewhere to make it sound better ?

TIP.

Edited September 24, 2010 by tipotep

[zoser]

Sorry Toth, but this is what most here will say/think.... USE THE SEARCH BUTTON.

You think you started something new.... but this has been discussed to the point of puking.

"Ad nauseum" as those Roman perverts loved to call it.

I can't see how any one can be blase about PP Abe? Whether or not there is another thread on this topic is irrelevant. If this forum discussed nothing else I for one would not be disappointed.

PP represents one of if not the greatest mystery on the face of planet earth.

Conventional explanations are wholly and totally unsatisfactory and almost certainly the work of the dismissive and the charlattan. It was not built by indiginous indians, it does not date to 500AD and it was not built using granite pounding tools.

PP is extraordinary, mind blowing and one of the greatest esoteric secrets of our time.

Saying of Zoser:

Everyone fears time - time fears the pyramids - the pyramids fear Puma Punku.

I am still around and watching

Z

[arglebargle]

How exactly would you carbon date the stone structures? Just because something organic was found at the site doesn't neccesarily mean it was there at the same time. But it is usually considered sufficient evidence in archaeology for some reason I have yet to entirely understand. I mean, I can see that if they find lots of organic materials in a location and they all date from the same period, without exceptions. That this would point towards an increasingly more plausible conclusion, but I am not at all that familiar with Puma Punku, except to say that regardless of how old it is, it is a fantastic piece of work.

[Swede]

I can't see how any one can be blase about PP Abe? Whether or not there is another thread on this topic is irrelevant. If this forum discussed nothing else I for one would not be disappointed.

PP represents one of if not the greatest mystery on the face of planet earth.

Conventional explanations are wholly and totally unsatisfactory and almost certainly the work of the dismissive and the charlattan. It was not built by indiginous indians, it does not date to 500AD and it was not built using granite pounding tools.

PP is extraordinary, mind blowing and one of the greatest esoteric secrets of our time.

Saying of Zoser:

Everyone fears time - time fears the pyramids - the pyramids fear Puma Punku.

I am still around and watching

Z

You have made three accented declarative statements re: Amerindians/dating/technology. Documentation?

Toying with plagiarism again?

.

[tipotep]

How exactly would you carbon date the stone structures? Just because something organic was found at the site doesn't neccesarily mean it was there at the same time. But it is usually considered sufficient evidence in archaeology for some reason I have yet to entirely understand. I mean, I can see that if they find lots of organic materials in a location and they all date from the same period, without exceptions. That this would point towards an increasingly more plausible conclusion, but I am not at all that familiar with Puma Punku, except to say that regardless of how old it is, it is a fantastic piece of work.

It would be alot easier if stone had enough carbon to date but ..... i hear what your saying , how do they know the organic material was there when the stones were laid ? Really they can only guess but atleast it gives us a guideline to say , well they are atleast XXXX years old or older .

Either way im sure if they invent some way to work out when a stone was cut - there would be a fair few dates of certain structures that would need to be re calculated

TIP.

[TheSearcher]

They are arguably the oldest, and most baffling ruins on the face of the Earth. It is hard to imagine how they did not come to be known as one of the wonders of the world like the Great Pyramid. Spectacular in its own right, the Great Pyramid is, yet it pales in comparison to the ruins of Puma Punku in Tiahuanaco, in South America.

The ruins of Puma Punku are one of four structures in the ancient city of Tiahuanaco. The others three structures are; The Akapana Pyramid, the Kalasasaya Platform, and the Subterranean Temple.

Even with modern day technology and information, these structures defy logic, and confound those who seek to solve the mysteries that lie within them. The ruins of Puma Punku are said to be the most fascinating, and most confusing of all.

Who built these structures?

How were these structures built?

Why were these structures built?

These are all questions on the minds of those researching these ancient structures, and they are not easily answerable, if they can even be answered at all.

These structures do not defy logic at all, I'm always surprised that people would say that. They are most certainly impressive, yes, no argument there, but defying logic? Sorry but no.

This has been already widely discussed here in UM though, as Abramelin dd mention.

This thread and this thread, to give but two examples. There is very little that has not already been discussed. I would consider reading the threads, if only for the great amount of info they contain. They also contain a great amount of fringe ideas, but hey that's to be expected, it is a discussion forum after all.

I can't see how any one can be blase about PP Abe? Whether or not there is another thread on this topic is irrelevant. If this forum discussed nothing else I for one would not be disappointed.

PP represents one of if not the greatest mystery on the face of planet earth.

Conventional explanations are wholly and totally unsatisfactory and almost certainly the work of the dismissive and the charlattan. It was not built by indiginous indians, it does not date to 500AD and it was not built using granite pounding tools.

PP is extraordinary, mind blowing and one of the greatest esoteric secrets of our time.

Saying of Zoser:

Everyone fears time - time fears the pyramids - the pyramids fear Puma Punku.

I am still around and watching

Z

Conventional explanations are wholly and totally unsatisfactory in your eyes only Zoser. Since it was not built by indigenous Indians, it does not date to 500AD and it was not built using granite pounding tools, care to give your explanation and source it?

Somebody like you, with so much disagreement and ideas, must surely have their own theory? Or at least explain what lead you to this conclusion? And spare us the esoteric stuff you usually spout, that's just not cutting it.

Oh and btw, You are correct, Puma Punku is older than 500 AD, most of what can still be seen around there was built in between 1500 BC and 200 BC. Nobody has ever contested that fact. Where did you get that date?

[Harte]

Seems that an extra "0" was added somewhere to make it sound better ?

TIP.

The older date was based on some since-discredited archaeoastronomy. Posnanski was his name - or something like that anyway.

Harte

[Abramelin]

I can't see how any one can be blase about PP Abe? Whether or not there is another thread on this topic is irrelevant. If this forum discussed nothing else I for one would not be disappointed.

PP represents one of if not the greatest mystery on the face of planet earth.

Conventional explanations are wholly and totally unsatisfactory and almost certainly the work of the dismissive and the charlattan. It was not built by indiginous indians, it does not date to 500AD and it was not built using granite pounding tools.

PP is extraordinary, mind blowing and one of the greatest esoteric secrets of our time.

Saying of Zoser:

Everyone fears time - time fears the pyramids - the pyramids fear Puma Punku.

I am still around and watching

Z

I am not being blase about this, Zoser.

And that there are several other threads about this topic is relevant: if you just add to an older thread, you will have all the info together in one thread, and you won't have to regurge everything again.

[zoser]

Check this out and try and explain how this precision cut was made.

Edited September 28, 2010 by zoser

[zoser]

These structures do not defy logic at all, I'm always surprised that people would say that. They are most certainly impressive, yes, no argument there, but defying logic? Sorry but no.

This has been already widely discussed here in UM though, as Abramelin dd mention.

This thread and this thread, to give but two examples. There is very little that has not already been discussed. I would consider reading the threads, if only for the great amount of info they contain. They also contain a great amount of fringe ideas, but hey that's to be expected, it is a discussion forum after all.

Conventional explanations are wholly and totally unsatisfactory in your eyes only Zoser. Since it was not built by indigenous Indians, it does not date to 500AD and it was not built using granite pounding tools, care to give your explanation and source it?

Somebody like you, with so much disagreement and ideas, must surely have their own theory? Or at least explain what lead you to this conclusion? And spare us the esoteric stuff you usually spout, that's just not cutting it.

Oh and btw, You are correct, Puma Punku is older than 500 AD, most of what can still be seen around there was built in between 1500 BC and 200 BC. Nobody has ever contested that fact. Where did you get that date?

You sound angry Mr Searcher. Yes I do have a clear idea of how it was built and when; although in this case I do not know the why. I have explained these views many times by giving comparisons to a person nearer our time who achieved a similar feat, albeit not to the same mind boggling precision. Your orthodox views are pure delusion and I believe deep down you know it. It's like the catholic church refuting Galileo. That Galileo would eventually prevail was inexorable. You know this Mr S.

Z

[ShadowSot]

How exactly would you carbon date the stone structures? Just because something organic was found at the site doesn't neccesarily mean it was there at the same time. But it is usually considered sufficient evidence in archaeology for some reason I have yet to entirely understand. I mean, I can see that if they find lots of organic materials in a location and they all date from the same period, without exceptions. That this would point towards an increasingly more plausible conclusion, but I am not at all that familiar with Puma Punku, except to say that regardless of how old it is, it is a fantastic piece of work.

Samples are taken fromt he site, between the stones, under the sructure, artifacts found with the structure, ect.

They are compiled together and then that information is used to calculate the date.

Coupled with that is weathering of the stones and relative information from the site itself.

[TheSearcher]

You sound angry Mr Searcher. Yes I do have a clear idea of how it was built and when; although in this case I do not know the why. I have explained these views many times by giving comparisons to a person nearer our time who achieved a similar feat, albeit not to the same mind boggling precision. Your orthodox views are pure delusion and I believe deep down you know it. It's like the catholic church refuting Galileo. That Galileo would eventually prevail was inexorable. You know this Mr S.

Z

Not angry as such, just exasperated by your usual posts without proof and substance. It's time you start to put up or shut up. Most of us "skeptics " have been asking you to start proving your claims, several times over, yet you always fail to do so, providing some excuse or the other.

I remember full well what you said last time, that you would only reveal your "sources" to a like minded person. Sorry not good enough. You make the claims, you have the burden of proof. If my orthodox view is so delusional, you should have no problem proving your "superior knowledge".

If you choose again, to not provide any proof, or come up with another feeble excuse, then we can only conclude that there is no such proof, but in your own mind.

Samples are taken fromt he site, between the stones, under the sructure, artifacts found with the structure, ect.

They are compiled together and then that information is used to calculate the date.

Coupled with that is weathering of the stones and relative information from the site itself.

You beat me to it, dammit....

[The Word of Thoth]

Why is who so important? Seriously I never think "who" built the ruins ever so important, it leads people away from the essence of ancient cultures to vain racial pride. Who love to ask so will prove indeed inferior.

surely you'd be interested to know who? i know i would!

at a time before columbus 'discovered' the Americas, these structures were standing.... do you not have any desire to know why how or who?

[ShadowSot]

Why is who so important? Seriously I never think "who" built the ruins ever so important, it leads people away from the essence of ancient cultures to vain racial pride. Who love to ask so will prove indeed inferior.

I think of who, but not because of race.

Who were these people?

What were their beliefs?

Why did they build this?

What were their names, if it's possible to find out.

They were people every bit as real as you or me and I want to know who they were. The monuments are merely a facet of them.

[The Word of Thoth]

How exactly would you carbon date the stone structures? Just because something organic was found at the site doesn't neccesarily mean it was there at the same time. But it is usually considered sufficient evidence in archaeology for some reason I have yet to entirely understand. I mean, I can see that if they find lots of organic materials in a location and they all date from the same period, without exceptions. That this would point towards an increasingly more plausible conclusion, but I am not at all that familiar with Puma Punku, except to say that regardless of how old it is, it is a fantastic piece of work.

I think the date came about due to the sites layout mirroring certain astronomical alignments. this was put forward by a Professor Arthur Posnansky who had studied the area for a good 50 years.

He based his theories on the astronomical phenomena known as "obliqueness of the ecliptic" (not to be confused with the other astronomical phenomenon known as "Precession". Since the Earth is tilted on its axis in respect to the plane of the solar system, the resulting angle when viewed from earth causes the planets of our solar system to travel across the sky in a line called the plane of the ecliptic.

At present our earth is tilted at an angle of around 23˚ 27' 00", but this is not constant. The earth's axis oscillates slowly between 22˚ 01' 00" to an extreme of 24˚ 05' 00". This cycle (repeating itself from one extreme to the other and back) takes roughly 41,000 years to complete. The alignments at the Kalassaya temple suggest a tilt of the earth's axis amounting to 23˚ 8' 48", indicating a date of 15,000 B.C.

[Leonardo]

You sound angry Mr Searcher. Yes I do have a clear idea of how it was built and when; although in this case I do not know the why. I have explained these views many times by giving comparisons to a person nearer our time who achieved a similar feat, albeit not to the same mind boggling precision. Your orthodox views are pure delusion and I believe deep down you know it. It's like the catholic church refuting Galileo. That Galileo would eventually prevail was inexorable. You know this Mr S.

Z

Please do not liken yourself to Galileo, or any scientist, until you can back up your ideas with hard evidence and facts. It is otherwise an affront to the names you are abusing.

[The Word of Thoth]

No, I do never see it as big deal who built them untill I had to refute imbecilic eurocentric babels. Why they were built and the beauty always get my attention far sooner than by whom and how they were built. When I found myself trying hard to identify the builders of ancient world, nothing but hollowness rewards my mind instead of fulfilment. The only answer is also the most obvious answer that Humans built them.

dude im not taking anything away from the beauty of the place. far from it!!! I was struck by the awe of the place when i was there.

I think the next logical step for me after I had asked about when and how was who built them. Not to take anything away from the site or the builders, but out of a genuine interest and curiosity. definately not to look down at anyone or hold anyone in contempt!!!!

[Harte]

I think the date came about due to the sites layout mirroring certain astronomical alignments. this was put forward by a Professor Arthur Posnansky who had studied the area for a good 50 years.

He based his theories on the astronomical phenomena known as "obliqueness of the ecliptic" (not to be confused with the other astronomical phenomenon known as "Precession". Since the Earth is tilted on its axis in respect to the plane of the solar system, the resulting angle when viewed from earth causes the planets of our solar system to travel across the sky in a line called the plane of the ecliptic.

At present our earth is tilted at an angle of around 23˚ 27' 00", but this is not constant. The earth's axis oscillates slowly between 22˚ 01' 00" to an extreme of 24˚ 05' 00". This cycle (repeating itself from one extreme to the other and back) takes roughly 41,000 years to complete. The alignments at the Kalassaya temple suggest a tilt of the earth's axis amounting to 23˚ 8' 48", indicating a date of 15,000 B.C.

It should be noted here that many of Posnansky's so-called "alignments" were based on where he assumed buildings used to stand.

IOW, several of the structures he used for "alignments" weren't even there when he was doing his investigation.

Others had been moved, it was later found.

So, no, there is no validity to his dates.

Harte

[zoser]

Please do not liken yourself to Galileo, or any scientist, until you can back up your ideas with hard evidence and facts. It is otherwise an affront to the names you are abusing.

Sorry - the analogy stands. It is a good one. Revolutionary minds versus the dogatic, unconvincing flat brain of the establishment.

If the cap fits my friend.........

[Swede]

Sorry - the analogy stands. It is a good one. Revolutionary minds versus the dogatic, unconvincing flat brain of the establishment.

If the cap fits my friend.........

Chuckle! And "compliments" on your literacy. Am unfamiliar with the definition of "dogatic". Maybe my Schnauzer would know.

Some definitions that may be of interest;

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hubris

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plagiarism

.