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Wealth Distribution.


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#121    Br Cornelius

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 12:27 PM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 07 April 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

So because a fascist government in Italy decided to take ownership of some corporations somehow, and quite incrediably, you've managed to deduce capitalism and corporationism as being fascist.

Can you convince yourself the sky is green too?
I never claimed that Italy nationalized certain industries, they set up special relationships with private corporations which offered them protection and promotion by the state in return for support for the states greater objectives.
I don't think you understand what I am talking about. There is an excellent article which goes into detail charting Americas decent into Fascism, I will see if I can dig it out.
Fascism is a philosphy about how to organize society and Germany and Italy in the 1940's are just two examples of how that played out.

Not what I was looking for, but a nice simple summery;



There is far more forensic information on who were the exact players and the parts they played.

Look into the characters who set up the CIA and notice that they all had connections to Nazi Germany. Notice also that Bush Senior was found to be using a network of extremist right wing political groups in the run up to his election, until he was rumbled by a journalist and he belatedly distanced himself from them.


Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 07 April 2013 - 01:07 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#122    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:15 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 07 April 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

I don't think you understand what I am talking about.

No I think you're missing the point.

What one government did doesnt define capitalism for everybody else.


#123    Br Cornelius

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:48 PM

View PostGiant Killer B, on 07 April 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

No I think you're missing the point.

What one government did doesnt define capitalism for everybody else.
I am talking about the American government of now - a corruption of capitalism to a monopoly supporting fascistic state. The closest historic analogue is Italy in the 1940's.

Br Cornelius

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#124    Sakari

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 05:09 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 07 April 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

you really don't live in the democracy you believe and you really don't have a country of free opportunity in the way you would like to imagine.

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So true.....

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#125    Capt Amerika

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 02:43 PM

View PostPurifier, on 06 April 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

Which wouldn't be much of a problem now, if religious groups and religious parents would have allowed the government to pass out birth control contraceptives long ago, to students from middle school and on up; even at the local churches. There are more groups, organizations and people to blame, than just the government. The catholics come to mind as one of them, with their anti-birth control nonsense.

Of course there would always be a few kids who don't listen and suffer the consequences of having unprotected sex, but I'll bet you ten to one that teenage pregnancies would have been a lot lower in the past 40 or 50 years and the current population less than 300 million now, if a  anti-sex education religious mentality for kids hadn't gotten in the way of the government trying to prevent teenage pregnancy through the years. Never-the-less, that is just one small issue of a bigger clusterF in this country, as elsewhere in other countries across the globe.

Yeah, thats what the problem is...
Because the "religious kids" are just acting like rabbits compared to the non religious kids.
Give me a break.


#126    Capt Amerika

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 02:59 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 06 April 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

And you suffer as a consequence. its only you as a citizen who can do anything about it.

My point here is, you are blaming the victims of a system that went bad 40years ago. By not been more outraged at the perpetrators you are part of the problem and you will only see the situation get worse as more wealth and power is concentrated into an ever smaller cartel of the rich and influential. The inevitable logic of the progression you are on is that you will either become one of the most favoured companies or you will be driven out of business by punitive use of the corrupt states power to look after its own. i don't fancy your chances.

Unless people like you take an active interest in dismantling the power of the state-corporate complex you will be its inevitable victim, as the citizenry of the Italian fascist state increasingly became the victims of their own nation.

Br Cornelius

Then why is it that in America, Poverty has been redifined so much that it now means you can only afford the basic cable for your 40 inch flatscreen and that the mobile plan may have limited speeds during peak hours and the car your driving is a compact thats 5 years old?
When i was growing up, and in poverty, we drove cars that were 20 years old, had one landline, and our black and white tv only received broadcast channels for free.
all other money went to pay bills.
I have worked my way up from that to be a succesful middle class person and am happy as can be.
Now my kids will get a better start than i had and their kids the same etc....
That is how you get to be in the 1% someday, you dont plan on doing it in a generation.
I may have a less than savory Govt, they may give rich people more than they deserve at tax time but in the end
I Love my country and all the opportunities its afforded me.
I have not been held back or had my growth stunted because someone else made more money than i did.
Personally, i think you just rub people the wrong way with the doomsday attitude.
The sky is not falling and their will not be civil unrest.  at some point the right person is going to be elected and things will change.
then again, why would anyone be surprised by your attitutde, your avatar says it all.
"Life Sucks, get over it"
For some of us though, life is great.

Edited by Capt Amerika, 08 April 2013 - 03:00 PM.


#127    hacktorp

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:29 PM

Is there a cure for "Stockholm Syndrome"?


#128    Br Cornelius

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:54 PM

View PostCapt Amerika, on 08 April 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

Then why is it that in America, Poverty has been redifined so much that it now means you can only afford the basic cable for your 40 inch flatscreen and that the mobile plan may have limited speeds during peak hours and the car your driving is a compact thats 5 years old?
When i was growing up, and in poverty, we drove cars that were 20 years old, had one landline, and our black and white tv only received broadcast channels for free.
all other money went to pay bills.
I have worked my way up from that to be a succesful middle class person and am happy as can be.
Now my kids will get a better start than i had and their kids the same etc....
That is how you get to be in the 1% someday, you dont plan on doing it in a generation.
I may have a less than savory Govt, they may give rich people more than they deserve at tax time but in the end
I Love my country and all the opportunities its afforded me.
I have not been held back or had my growth stunted because someone else made more money than i did.
Personally, i think you just rub people the wrong way with the doomsday attitude.
The sky is not falling and their will not be civil unrest.  at some point the right person is going to be elected and things will change.
then again, why would anyone be surprised by your attitutde, your avatar says it all.
"Life Sucks, get over it"
For some of us though, life is great.
Tell that to the recently homeless middle classes.

Quote

(Reuters) - Across the United States, the number of hungry and homeless people is growing, and budget fights at the federal level are threatening the aid many need to survive, the U.S. Conference of Mayors said on Thursday.
Amidst the holiday season of family feasts and corporate dinners, the mayors released a report that found requests for emergency food assistance rose in 21 out of the 25 cities it surveyed in 2012 and remained at the same level in three. More than half the cities said homelessness increased.
"This report is a stark reminder of the long-lasting impact the recession has had on many of our citizens," Greg Fischer, mayor of Louisville, Kentucky, said in a statement. "Families, who once lived in middle class homes, now find themselves without a roof over their heads, needing multiple social services for the first time in their lives."
The 25 cities are of varying size and wealth in all regions of the country. They included Boston, Chicago, Cleveland, Dallas, Los Angeles, Salt Lake City and Nashville, Tennessee.
Among those seeking emergency food, 51 percent were in families and 37 percent were employed. Nearly 1 in 6 - 17 percent - were elderly and 8.5 percent were homeless, according to the survey.
Nearly all of the cities reported a rise in the number of people seeking emergency food for the first time.
"In Philadelphia, I see people who are hungry and in need of shelter on a daily basis and explaining to them that Congress is cutting funding for the help they need is not acceptable," said Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter in a statement.
http://www.reuters.c...E8BJ14I20121220

I think you live in a dream land since you don't seem to live in the real America. What cool aid are you drinking, the type that makes you fly :tu:

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 08 April 2013 - 03:59 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#129    hacktorp

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 04:09 PM

Pfft...give those people a 40-inch flatscreen and a used car.  Problem solved.


#130    Einsteinium

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:52 PM

If you are intelligent and willing to work hard, you can move up the social ladder in America. All it takes is unceasing dedication, brilliant maneuvering from job to job and brilliantly keeping yourself educated and re-training when needed to keep up with technology. It simply requires one to put off having children until one's career is up to the level they want it to be, one must save and invest and not blow money on things one cannot afford. One must plan for hard times. One must be smart in how one invests, keep an eye on the market, learn the market. One must take advantage of compound interest, and one must put off having fun now, so one can have a better shot at being well-off in the future.

"live like no one else now, so that you can live like no one else later"

Sound hard? That's because it is.

Think you deserve the same shot as people who do these things, when you do not do these things? No. You don't.

Think it's 'not fair' that's because life is not fair, no system will be fair.

Think your neighbor had it easier than you, because their parents had money to help them? Well, they did have it easier, try hard so your kids might have it easier too.

Think the system is rigged against you, that the rich conspire to stay rich, and that they conspire to keep the poor, poor? Well, get involved, get informed, VOTE, get involved in your community The system is the way it is because people let it get that way

No, the govt. cannot save you nor should it. No, socialism is not going to make this country better. You CAN work hard and make it, but it is NOT easy, and it is becoming harder. There is chance involved, luck. But that is just life. Do not fight the natural way of things, learn to seek opportunity in how the natural way works.


#131    Br Cornelius

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:24 PM

There are many ways to organise a society. There is nothing implicitly "natural" about the way it is currently organized. It is the consequence of a long series of human choices and interventions to shape the way things work into a particular form.

It doesn't work for an increasing minority of people. Society is about serving the needs of its citizens - otherwise it is not a society.

People need to start asking themselves what is life about, what do we need to be happy, doe you need to be aspiring to be the next big thing. To base a whole way of life around aquisitivness and envy and greed is a certain receipy for almost everyone ending up  miserable and poor.

These are all decision which have been made and can be remade to serve better ends.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#132    Einsteinium

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:28 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 08 April 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

There are many ways to organise a society. There is nothing implicitly "natural" about the way it is currently organized. It is the consequence of a long series of human choices and interventions to shape the way things work into a particular form.

It doesn't work for an increasing minority of people. Society is about serving the needs of its citizens - otherwise it is not a society.

People need to start asking themselves what is life about, what do we need to be happy, doe you need to be aspiring to be the next big thing. To base a whole way of life around aquisitivness and envy and greed is a certain receipy for almost everyone ending up  miserable and poor.

These are all decision which have been made and can be remade to serve better ends.

Br Cornelius

I agree that we do need to re-evaluate where we are at as a society and where we want to go. We need to look at what ends our society values, does our society value happiness? Wealth? What is rewarded and what is being punished in our society? How can we encourage and motivate the unhappy to drive towards happiness for themselves? We need to do this as a society, govt. cannot force us to change our ways. Govt. does not need to be the thing that starts or forces this change, it has to be a grassroots change at the individual level moving outwards broadly.

What I meant by 'the natural way of things' is that in nature the animal that carries the biggest stick, be it brute force or intelligence, succeeds. No animal is kept alive in nature for its weakness, only for its strength. Any system that we create that tries to defy the system of nature, namely- survival of the fittest. Will be a system that by design is just waiting to die on the vine.

Edited by Einsteinium, 08 April 2013 - 06:31 PM.


#133    Br Cornelius

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:37 PM

Human society is about caring for all members of that society - because they have a role to play.
People are nurtured and its not just about survival of the fittest - that is a distortion of human nature.

Br Cornelius

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#134    Einsteinium

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:44 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 08 April 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

Human society is about caring for all members of that society - because they have a role to play.
People are nurtured and its not just about survival of the fittest - that is a distortion of human nature.

Br Cornelius

No it is not, not at a societal level. Throughout human history civilizations have gone to war, the society with the strongest/smartest war machine has always conquered weaker peoples. The Europeans conquered the Native Americans giving rise to the USA. Ancient Rome conquered numerous states to become the vast empire that it was. Human history has always been one of a stronger force conquering a weaker force. Societies are shaped by these victories and losses. Whole civilizations have been wiped out, entire nations have risen and fallen by this standard. You either do not understand this fundamental truth about human history, or you are simply choosing to not take it into consideration.


#135    Br Cornelius

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:23 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 08 April 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

No it is not, not at a societal level. Throughout human history civilizations have gone to war, the society with the strongest/smartest war machine has always conquered weaker peoples. The Europeans conquered the Native Americans giving rise to the USA. Ancient Rome conquered numerous states to become the vast empire that it was. Human history has always been one of a stronger force conquering a weaker force. Societies are shaped by these victories and losses. Whole civilizations have been wiped out, entire nations have risen and fallen by this standard. You either do not understand this fundamental truth about human history, or you are simply choosing to not take it into consideration.
Societies do not survive and prosper unless they create supportive and interdependent social structures. National solidarity is about ensuring the the society as a whole is healthy enough to give that society a sustainable future. Throughout mans history there is ample evidence that society has supported and nurtured its members in times of illness and hardship - this is the rule - not the exception.

Really its about balance - but at the moment there is little real balance. We live in fractured cells as individuals divided from our society and the consequence is an epidemic of mental illness.
It is true to say that you cannot substitute wealthfare for real "society" - but when society is all but totally broken as a social institution it is an essential prop to prevent total anarchy.

Competition has its place - but it is only a relatively small part of the overall mix.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 08 April 2013 - 07:25 PM.

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