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History Debate!

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#91    xFelix

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:00 PM

Nzambi(or in my opinion, the real Jesus) is the best conquerer there ever was.

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#92    DeWitz

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:09 PM

What I find fascinating about this thread is the emphasis posters are placing on particular historical and cultural connections and prejudices (sometimes their own) relating to their choice of "best" conqueror. The minutiae of ancient and medieval battles, the nuances of minority ethnic group contributions (Magyars; Croats), the speculation about tactics and weapons systems, the shifting sands of the criteria for "best" and the umbrage taken when an ethnic or national group is perceived to have been to be slighted by some comment.

Frankly, I don't remember the criteria, if they were ever laid out. My first response to the "conqueror of all time" originally was "ignorance;" another poster added "fear" to that.  I concur. I could be maudlin and suggest "Jesus" (not the Christian Church) who conquered most parts of the world with his message of love and mercy; or Mohammed/Mahomet who conquered by sword and Qu'ran. How about Joseph Lister who conquered germs by establishing modern antisepsis, thus saving millions (people and dollars)? Or the other disease conquerors who helped eradicate pandemic disease through prophylaxis, inoculation or environmental changes (i.e., draining malarial swamps)? An argument can be made that such scientific progress (enlightened science being close to the opposite of what I called "ignorance") is also a mighty conqueror.(despite recent setbacks like anitbiotic- resistant bacteria and questions of vaccine side effects).

I enjoy military history as much as the next guy or gal (my hobby is  modern "obscure war," such as the Panay Incident, the Spanish Civil War, Nanking, Kalkin-Gol/Nomonhan, the Winter War, the coup in Chile, the Sandinista Revolution, Georgia 2005). As a result of working with refugees (WW II era onward), I am also painfully aware of the human wreckage wrought by war, so I never romanticize it.

Not meaning to be a buzzkill, I simply plead that in this continuous international militarization of humanity we remember how "do-gooders" can be conquerors, too.

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#93    DeWitz

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:13 PM

View PostxFelix, on 28 June 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Nzambi(or in my opinion, the real Jesus) is the best conquerer there ever was.

xFelix, you beat--beat me to the punch--on Jesus/Yeshua/Nzambi. Thanks!

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#94    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:37 PM

Some idle speculation about that which never was, but had Japanese had European type warships during Sengoku period, and the will, we would certainly add to any list of conquerors the names Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu. I believe the Europeans who witnessed the battles wrote reports home of their "shock and awe" at how clever and devasting the Japanese were at waging war, and how lucky that they were so far away and had no interests outside Japan, the excursion to Korea  besides. A great "what if", if before the technology gap widened, particulary in cannon and warships, a Japanese army had met face to face with a European army at that time......

And to add, that though as this is English language forum, then the majority here will be native English speakers, and a majority of those Americans. It would add to debates such as this if a Mongol, Chinese or Japanese could contribute, otherwise it is mostly Europeans (by nationality or heritage) talking amongst themselves and there will, despite some national differences, be a certain inbuilt bias.

Edited by Tutankhaten-pasheri, 28 June 2013 - 12:47 PM.


#95    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:40 PM

View PostTutankhaten-pasheri, on 28 June 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

But to go back to topic, I did not see name of Gustavus Adolphus mentioned.

Read post 38. :tu:

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#96    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:44 PM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 28 June 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

What I find fascinating about this thread is the emphasis posters are placing on particular historical and cultural connections and prejudices (sometimes their own) relating to their choice of "best" conqueror. The minutiae of ancient and medieval battles, the nuances of minority ethnic group contributions (Magyars; Croats), the speculation about tactics and weapons systems, the shifting sands of the criteria for "best" and the umbrage taken when an ethnic or national group is perceived to have been to be slighted by some comment.

This is called forum if you didnt noticed where people discuss. Not just mention one name and disapear for eternity.
So now I must ignores my history because Im Croat? Get real. I should agree on Pasheri because mentioning smaller countries is forbidden?
Please I do not have complex for being small country. Im proud of my country history. We are here from 7 century. Happy to be alive. Something like Israel.
Pasheri mentioned Slavs and Hungarians stoping Mongols.
I respond that Mongols burnt Hungary and half of Croatia and on other half of Croatia they didnt go well and why.
To proove point that they didnt stop Mongols.
Trust me if I wanted to wrote about it I will fullfill 3 pages minimum.

You having problems with Hungarians and Croats perhaps?

Edited by the L, 28 June 2013 - 12:49 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#97    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:51 PM

View PostTutankhaten-pasheri, on 28 June 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu.

And many others. I like Hanzo. :ph34r:

Edited by the L, 28 June 2013 - 12:51 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#98    DeWitz

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:56 PM

View Postthe L, on 28 June 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

Read post 38. :tu:

Gustavus Adolphus, Sweden's King and the Lion of the North, was their leader in the Northern War and the first battle of the 30 Years War. He was a warrior and church reformer, comparable to a combo platter of England's Henry IV and Henry VIII.

My only comment about Tut-pasheri's list is that, according to the way most Westerners are educated, the Thirty Year' War includes 2 or 3 of the other conflicts, all subsumed under one heading.

If not for the magic of that amazing device called a 'DVD' I might never have discovered the intricacies of 17th century Russian military history, with the end of the Gudenov family and the crisis of the Tsar's succession. I'm not even certain how accurate the history of the film "1612" actually is. We're fortunate to have Tut's perspective on these things from an east-of-the-Vistula/Wisla point of view.

[previously incarnate as 'szentgyorgy']

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#99    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:57 PM

View Postthe L, on 28 June 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

And many others. I like Hanzo. :ph34r:
To me the most interesting is Takeda Shingen, the incident with the war fan for instance. Also for defeating Oda Nobunaga and Tokugawa Ieyasu combined.


#100    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:05 PM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 28 June 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Gustavus Adolphus, Sweden's King and the Lion of the North, was their leader in the Northern War and the first battle of the 30 Years War. He was a warrior and church reformer, comparable to a combo platter of England's Henry IV and Henry VIII.

My only comment about Tut-pasheri's list is that, according to the way most Westerners are educated, the Thirty Year' War includes 2 or 3 of the other conflicts, all subsumed under one heading.

If not for the magic of that amazing device called a 'DVD' I might never have discovered the intricacies of 17th century Russian military history, with the end of the Gudenov family and the crisis of the Tsar's succession. I'm not even certain how accurate the history of the film "1612" actually is. We're fortunate to have Tut's perspective on these things from an east-of-the-Vistula/Wisla point of view.
1612 was essentially a fantasy film. It had a unicorn!, well, yes, a dream sequence, but..... And it turned reality on it's head with Poles trying to take Moscow and failing, when reality is that they did take Moscow, and then were ejected by Minin and Pozharsky, who are hardly mentioned in the film, but some fantasy Spaniards are. Poles hate this film, but really it is all nonsense. Entertaining fantasy, but certainly not history. There was a better film, using the same props, about Taras Bulba, also hated by Poles....

Edited by Tutankhaten-pasheri, 28 June 2013 - 01:10 PM.


#101    DeWitz

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:06 PM

View Postthe L, on 28 June 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

This is called forum if you didnt noticed where people discuss. Not just mention one name and disapear for eternity.
So now I must ignores my history because Im Croat? Get real. I should agree on Pasheri because mentioning smaller countries is forbidden?
Please I do not have complex for being small country. Im proud of my country history. We are here from 7 century. Happy to be alive. Something like Israel.
Pasheri mentioned Slavs and Hungarians stoping Mongols.
I respond that Mongols burnt Hungary and half of Croatia and on other half of Croatia they didnt go well and why.
To proove point that they didnt stop Mongols.
Trust me if I wanted to wrote about it I will fullfill 3 pages minimum.

You having problems with Hungarians and Croats perhaps?

Apparently you read what you want, not what I write.

My wife is 100% Magyar, and a good friend of mine is married to a Croat. I attended graduate school classes with Croats, Serbs, Iraqis and over a dozen other ethnicities and nationalities. I speak four languages and read five more, and have lived in three countries. So leave your paranoia behind, at least when it comes to me, whom you don't know from Adam. I have no problems with Hungarians or Croats, or Baluchistanis or Martians, for that matter. I do get impatient with people who see what they want to see, and not what is actually written.

Yes, it's a forum--that's why I shared my opinion along with everyone else. I never forbade or rejected anybody's point of view; I simply added my own opinion--as valid as yours, Tut's or anyone else's.

If you can't read what I write, at least take to heart your own words: This is a forum, and within the parameters of UM you or I or Mickey Mouse can say whatever we want. So, feel free to respond and refute your own words at the beginning of your most recent post.

Mir!---You're probably a very nice, interesting person--but perhaps you should limit yourself to one cup of coffee per post.

Edited by szentgyorgy, 28 June 2013 - 01:11 PM.

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#102    DeWitz

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:17 PM

View PostTutankhaten-pasheri, on 28 June 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

1612 was essentially a fantasy film. It had a unicorn!, well, yes, a dream sequence, but..... And it turned reality on it's head with Poles trying to take Moscow and failing, when reality is that they did take Moscow, and then were ejected by Minin and Pozharsky, who are hardly mentioned in the film, but some fantasy Spaniards are. Poles hate this film, but really it is all nonsense. Entertaining fantasy, but certainly not history. There was a better film, using the same props, about Taras Bulba, also hated by Poles....

Thanks for the movie review! This was a purchase I made because it came under the heading of "obscure wars" (my hobby), at least obscure from a North American perspective. There's a movie from the 50's or 60's named "Taras Bulba," starring Tony Curtis, I believe, which was at least a partial American production. I doubt that's the film you have in mind.

The dream-unicorn didn't bother me; I had read about some Orthodox holy men taking certain vows during the time of troubles, but I had no idea whether the 'geo-political' info was valid. Thanks for setting me straight.

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#103    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:18 PM

Because minor or major its all count when you study history.

Georgia was small too yet its one of most epic tales of Mongolian conquest.
Naimans and Kuchlug were relativly small but their story was epic.
Croats and Hungarians were small yet they have some interesting stories to share as Battle of Mohi, Battle of Klis, Battle of Trogir, Battle of Split...
In the end Mongols were small population in certain sense yet they become big.

I reacated because you notice and stressed out irelevant things. No hard feelings here.

Edited by the L, 28 June 2013 - 01:24 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#104    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:26 PM

Now I know you have problems with Hungarians. :rolleyes:  Hint: wife

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#105    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:28 PM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 28 June 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Thanks for the movie review! This was a purchase I made because it came under the heading of "obscure wars" (my hobby), at least obscure from a North American perspective. There's a movie from the 50's or 60's named "Taras Bulba," starring Tony Curtis, I believe, which was at least a partial American production. I doubt that's the film you have in mind.

The dream-unicorn didn't bother me; I had read about some Orthodox holy men taking certain vows during the time of troubles, but I had no idea whether the 'geo-political' info was valid. Thanks for setting me straight.
The priest in chains was representative of all the others who had taken vows. I only saw the old Taras Bulba film on youtube clips, with the Russian Yul Bryner as the Ukranian Taras Bulba (nothing is easy with this period)..... The new film is this one http://en.wikipedia....lba_(2009_film)

And some nerd type info. The famous Zaporozhian Cossacks who these films are about, are now the Kuban Cossacks living in Russian Krasnodar Region. Well, it is slightly more complicated story, but digressing too far from OP I think. Though Catherine the Great was also a conqueror. Krasnodar used to be Ekaterinodar between the conquest of Kuban and the revolution.

Edited by Tutankhaten-pasheri, 28 June 2013 - 01:41 PM.





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