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A Proof That God Exists


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#346    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:30 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 02 May 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

I cannot replace God with the BB because God is not composed of matter and the universe is. Matter cannot cause itself into existence as nothing can.

You don't need matter to cause itself into existence under your framework; you only need something that can create matter.  You appear to also ultimately need something that was not caused, but considering that the evidence we have that allows us to evaluate the question, 'what kind of things have always existed and do not require a cause', amounts to zero, there's no reason to single out God and place him in opposition to anything else.  There's no more likelihood that, 'the thing that is uncaused and can create matter/universes', is God as opposed to a non-God; there is no data to evaluate.

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#347    Ben Masada

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 09:23 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 03 May 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

Yup, and a lot of people see the religious explanations as mumbo jumbo too, also with no logical explanation just a belief and a subjective spirituality that makes it true to you, but not in any way objectively true.

Nobody knows what God is composed of but you are free to believe whatever dogma you wish. Matter most likely cannot cause itself into existence based on observations of matter itself, but the universe could be caused by any number of things that we just do not understand. The cause, therefore, is a mystery. Nobody knows for sure. Again here you are stating that subjective experience is evidence for objective reality. This is not the case in science and subjective experience does not prove or even qualify as actual evidence for objective truth. Which is why we can argue back and forth all day. You saying it was God, me saying we just don't know. I am keeping an open mind- I admit it could be God, but I also admit that right now there is no possible way to objectively know and that it might not have been God. That is the truth.

That's the idea! Let's keep an open mind. Besides I am not discussing Science but Logic in Theology. At least we have achieved a common denominator that matter cannot cause itself into existence. Since the universe is matter that goes for it too.


#348    Ben Masada

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 09:27 PM

View Postxxxch00bxxx, on 03 May 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

Actually ben yes you did you made a thread saying "A Proof that God Exists" then on your first few sentences say this:

According to Moses Maimonides, a Philosopher, Theologian and Medical Doctor in his [color=#009900 !important]book[/color][color=#282828] "The Guide for the Perplexed," there would be no need for a Creator if the universe was eternal, without beginning or end. In other words, God would not exist. "However, if the universe did have a beginning, God by necessity would exist."[/color]

So yeah you talk about it like it's a fact make a thread saying it's proof that god exist's so it's safe to say you place it as a fact.

Yes, but I said later in a post to someone else that I don't like the word "proof" but evidence. Therefore I had made a mistake to use proof instead of evidence. In fact we cannot prove anything but work on evidences.


#349    Ben Masada

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 09:32 PM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 03 May 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

You don't need matter to cause itself into existence under your framework; you only need something that can create matter.  You appear to also ultimately need something that was not caused, but considering that the evidence we have that allows us to evaluate the question, 'what kind of things have always existed and do not require a cause', amounts to zero, there's no reason to single out God and place him in opposition to anything else.  There's no more likelihood that, 'the thing that is uncaused and can create matter/universes', is God as opposed to a non-God; there is no data to evaluate.

Well, in that case I go by default. Since you cannot produce a factual evidence that matter can cause itself into existence and the universe is composed of matter, the immaterial in God in implied. Again, I said implied and not proved although by Logic I can't see why not.


#350    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 04:50 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 03 May 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

Well, in that case I go by default. Since you cannot produce a factual evidence that matter can cause itself into existence and the universe is composed of matter, the immaterial in God in implied. Again, I said implied and not proved although by Logic I can't see why not.

I'm not sure what 'go by default' means.  You cannot produce factual evidence that matter needs to cause itself into existence, you haven't shown that there was ever a 'time' that matter/energy didn't exist; if God can be eternal so can anything else.  About as far as we can take your point currently seems to be, "if matter/energy hasn't always existed in some form then something must have created it".  You're still a good distance from any argument suggesting 'God' is a more likely answer than 'something'.

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"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" - C. Hitchens
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#351    Frank Merton

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:15 PM

Yea -- if there is a God of some sort, it's more like the Tao, and the Tao is not God, just "something."


#352    Einsteinium

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:30 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 06 May 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

Yea -- if there is a God of some sort, it's more like the Tao, and the Tao is not God, just "something."

Embracing Tao, you become embraced.
Supple, breathing gently, you become reborn.
Clearing your vision, you become clear.
Nurturing your beloved, you become impartial.
Opening your heart, you become accepted.
Accepting the World, you embrace Tao.
Bearing and nurturing,
Creating but not owning,
Giving without demanding,
Controlling without authority,
This is love.”
Lao Tzu, The Teachings of Lao-Tzu: The Tao-Te Ching


#353    Ben Masada

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:38 PM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 06 May 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

I'm not sure what 'go by default' means.  You cannot produce factual evidence that matter needs to cause itself into existence, you haven't shown that there was ever a 'time' that matter/energy didn't exist; if God can be eternal so can anything else.  About as far as we can take your point currently seems to be, "if matter/energy hasn't always existed in some form then something must have created it".  You're still a good distance from any argument suggesting 'God' is a more likely answer than 'something'.

I think you have a problem with Logic. By default I mean: Since you cannot produce evidence for your assertions by default mine becomes relevant. I cannot produce factual evidence that matter needs to cause itself into existence because it is not logical that matter causes itself into existence. It cannot. It must exist and if it does, it does not need to. Another illogical argument of yours is to claim that I have not shown that there was ever a time when matter/energy did not exist. Before matter was caused into existence there was no time as time is an accident of matter. Another is to imply that matter can be eternal as God is eternal. For matter to be eternal God would be irrelevant. And to study this issue it is a matter of many lifetimes, let alone just being a good distance from complition.

Edited by Ben Masada, 06 May 2013 - 08:39 PM.


#354    Einsteinium

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:02 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 06 May 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

I think you have a problem with Logic. By default I mean: Since you cannot produce evidence for your assertions by default mine becomes relevant. I cannot produce factual evidence that matter needs to cause itself into existence because it is not logical that matter causes itself into existence. It cannot. It must exist and if it does, it does not need to. Another illogical argument of yours is to claim that I have not shown that there was ever a time when matter/energy did not exist. Before matter was caused into existence there was no time as time is an accident of matter. Another is to imply that matter can be eternal as God is eternal. For matter to be eternal God would be irrelevant. And to study this issue it is a matter of many lifetimes, let alone just being a good distance from complition.

There is some debate over whether or not time existed before the big bang. And indeed whether or not space existed before the big bang. Time and space could have existed before the big bang- with the bang expanding into it, we just do not know. Also, matter and energy are essentially the same thing, hence the equation; Posted Image or in the simpler form everyone has heard of; E = mc²
Matter can be thought of as condensed energy. So what you really should be asking to be precise- is can ENERGY be created from nothing, randomly, or is there more to the universe and the universe's environment than meets the eye? I think we can all agree that there are holes in our best scientific theories regarding creation, the question is what are we missing? Could be God, could be something we cannot at present even imagine, or it could be something so simple and so elegant that it is hiding right under our noses and we just have not discovered it yet.


#355    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:00 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 06 May 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

I think you have a problem with Logic.

Perhaps, but I'll never know if you don't do a better job of following up your assertion that I'm being illogical with a specific explanation of what I'm illogical about.

Quote

By default I mean: Since you cannot produce evidence for your assertions by default mine becomes relevant.

Is that all you were arguing, that your assertion is 'relevant'?  I thought you were arguing that there's a good reason to believe your assertion is actually true, my mistake.

Quote

Another illogical argument of yours is to claim that I have not shown that there was ever a time when matter/energy did not exist.

Ha, 'another'?  What was the first illogical argument of mine again?

Quote

Before matter was caused into existence there was no time as time is an accident of matter.

Are you including 'energy' when you say 'matter'?  If so you are just asserting the truth what is actually being questioned when you say 'before matter was caused into existence'.

Quote

Another is to imply that matter can be eternal as God is eternal. For matter to be eternal God would be irrelevant. And to study this issue it is a matter of many lifetimes, let alone just being a good distance from complition.

Okay, let's be clear, 'relevant' and 'irrelevant' are somewhat subjective terms; people can find astrology to be relevant but that is not reason to believe that the constellations and planets influence human behavior.  I agree this has been studied for many lifetimes, millenia worth, but I'm hard pressed to think of much progress that has derived from it; depending on what exactly 'this issue' is, the progress in religions at least seems to come largely from science and Enlightenment thinking, not theological sources.

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"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" - C. Hitchens
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" - Richard Feynman

#356    laver

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:42 AM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 26 March 2013 - 02:46 AM, said:

Before the existance of modern science, people generally viewed the universe as being similar to bread dough. It had no definate shape, except for the shape God molded it to be. This stance is understandable considering how little they knew at the time. However now with Modern science, people have learned more and more that the universe is something more of a gigantic machine that runs on and on like a clock, and yet for some reason people suddenly assume based on this knew found truth that the universe must have suddenly created and designed itself. To me the fact that the universe undoubtedly has a beginning, and has laws that are ever so perfectly fine tuned to support life, is even more proof of the existance of God rather than the original "bread dough" idea.

God does exist and he can be scientifically proven, so that mankind is without excuse. The biggest evidence can be found simply in the air you breath every day, but nevertheless, more proof has, can, and will be given.

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

...to the end of the age....
and when will that be??


#357    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:04 PM

View Postlaver, on 07 May 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

...to the end of the age....
and when will that be??

Did he say that before or after he was crucified?

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#358    Doug1o29

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:30 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 25 March 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

A PROOF THAT GOD EXISTS.

According to Moses Maimonides, a Philosopher, Theologian and Medical Doctor in his book "The Guide for the Perplexed," there would be no need for a Creator if the universe was eternal, without beginning or end. In other words, God would not exist. However, if the universe did have a beginning, God by necessity would exist.
IF the universe had a beginning, then nothing existed before the universe, not even time, because time is part of the universe.  As such, there was nothing before the universe, not even god.  That means that god had a beginning.  SO:  who or what created god?
Doug

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Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#359    Ben Masada

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:05 PM

View PostEinsteinium, on 06 May 2013 - 09:02 PM, said:

There is some debate over whether or not time existed before the big bang. And indeed whether or not space existed before the big bang. Time and space could have existed before the big bang- with the bang expanding into it, we just do not know. Also, matter and energy are essentially the same thing, hence the equation; Posted Image or in the simpler form everyone has heard of; E = mc²
Matter can be thought of as condensed energy. So what you really should be asking to be precise- is can ENERGY be created from nothing, randomly, or is there more to the universe and the universe's environment than meets the eye? I think we can all agree that there are holes in our best scientific theories regarding creation, the question is what are we missing? Could be God, could be something we cannot at present even imagine, or it could be something so simple and so elegant that it is hiding right under our noses and we just have not discovered it yet.

Einsteinium, as we say in Hebrew, "Kall hakavod lecha" which means all my respects. That's a great post. I have never read from an atheist a post with the probability: "it could be God..." Usually God is absolutely discarded off the equation. Okay but back to the wagon, E=mc2 rather supports the assertion that energy is an accident  of matter. Space is the length between matter and matter; therefore an accident of matter. And as we have said before, time is an accident of matter in motion. Therefore, directily an accident of motion. From here we can deduce that before the beginning of the universe there was neither space nor time. Only the cacuum in the expectation to be occupied and to grow with the occupation of the elements within. Hence expansion of either the BB or from the original "Creatio ex-nihilo."


#360    Ben Masada

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:34 PM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 06 May 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:

Quote

Perhaps, but I'll never know if you don't do a better job of following up your assertion that I'm being illogical with a specific explanation of what I'm illogical about.

It is all explained in the following ups. You could have erased the above when it became irrelevant by reading the rest of the post.

Quote

Is that all you were arguing, that your assertion is 'relevant'?  I thought you were arguing that there's a good reason to believe your assertion is actually true, my mistake.

Yes, your mistake. At least, I am cautious to use the word "relevant". You guys discurse what you do not know. What can you tell me that's true? Nothing can be proved true and I thought you knew about these things.

Quote

Ha, 'another'?  What was the first illogical argument of mine again?

Nothing. I see no Logic in arguments too crowded with hostilities against the probability that God could be considered.

Quote

Are you including 'energy' when you say 'matter'?  If so you are just asserting the truth what is actually being questioned when you say 'before matter was caused into existence'.

No I am not. Energy is an accident of matter. When matter was caused into existence energy "made its entrance" as part of the universe.

Quote

Okay, let's be clear, 'relevant' and 'irrelevant' are somewhat subjective terms; people can find astrology to be relevant but that is not reason to believe that the constellations and planets influence human behavior.  I agree this has been studied for many lifetimes, millenia worth, but I'm hard pressed to think of much progress that has derived from it; depending on what exactly 'this issue' is, the progress in religions at least seems to come largely from science and Enlightenment thinking, not theological sources.

"That the constellations and planets influence human behavior" that's influence of matter over matter. After all we are part of the universe if I am to remind you. I see you are only too fast in discarding Theology notwithstanding the benefits Judaism through Theology has contributed with the moral development of humanity. What role has Science effected in the laws to promote peace and understanding among peoples? Almost all nations have applied the Decalogue as the basis for their possibility to live in society. How much is that part of atheistic influence? I think you should think twice before fighting the theistic theology.

Edited by Ben Masada, 08 May 2013 - 08:39 PM.





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