1528 replies to this topic

[Pericynthion]

bmk1245, on 20 November 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

And thats solid guess.


One make sense.
Although I'm not sure about film winding direction...
Anyway, once again, Peri, excellent info

Thanks, bmk.  What I was trying to say about the film direction is that the blue glow around the spots always seems to have a strong part of it that is vertical relative to the film frame, not the real world.  No matter how the astronaut has tilted the camera, the glow shows a vertical line relative to the film.  Here's a sampling of full-size crops from the high-resolution images taken from the ALSJ:



Frame 9330 was taken with the camera tilted up to look out of the overhead rendezvous window of the LM.  Frame 9345 was taken in lunar orbit.  For these two frames especially, the camera wasn't held perfectly level relative to the ground, etc., but the streaks are still vertical.  I think this is a pretty good indication that the blue glow around the dots is somehow tied to the camera or film processing equipment.

P.

[JimOberg]

psyche101, on 20 November 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

Nope, I think this is the doc though - LINK

Stu Harris suggests this:
http://uscode.house....d/pls/35C17.txt

The point is -- all this fuss about what the partial phrase is supposed to say, is bogus, because Hoagwash dropped the conditional clause but provided the remaining sentence with quotation marks and a full stop.

In other words, he faked it.

And apparently some people still are falling for the scam.

[TheMacGuffin]

psyche101, on 20 November 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

Would you say that any hypothetical group who would be involved in anything on the ground, would have a division specifically for recoveries, or would they have a "higher up" for want of a better word whom they would step aside for? For arguments sakes, would some sort of "Torchwood" override the regular army or woud the army/nayv/UASF itself have such a division each?

It's an interesting question, given a situation where rivalry between the services and agencies is constant, and we know that the Army, Navy, Air Force, CIA, AEC, FBI and God knows who else are all running their own UFO investigations.  

Leave aside for the moment what they found out or that we don't have all their records, we know these investigations existed.  I think the Army had the original one in fact, the IPU, and it probably did have the capability of recovering whatever it wanted on the ground, even if it couldn't do much of anything about the air or the ocean without cooperation from the other services.

The Army has its own security, intelligence and investigatory agencies, just like all the other services, and of course its own overseas intelligence network.  

I think the president would have intervened in this hodgepodge to try to bring some semblance of order into the chaos and set up some kind of inter-agency group.  I don't know how well that would have functioned, given the ongoing rivalries.

After all, the CIA was supposed to be THE intelligence agency that coordinated the efforts of all the others, especially in analysis and distribution of intelligence, but things didn't work out that way.  In practice, about 80% of the intelligence budget was controlled by the military agencies and they were never going to let the CIA tell them their business.  The military also kept its thumb on the NSA, the communications intelligence agency, because that had always been a special area of importance to the armed services--breaking the enemy codes.  No way would they ever give that up.  

So in practice, attempts at coordinating the rival bureaucracies have often had limited success, even after the big reorganization the occurred because of September 11, 2001.  

It's a chronic issue that has generated a vast amount of literature, and it happens in just about every area, not only UFOs.

[TheMacGuffin]

This is one reason my attention often goes back to that Joint Research and Development Board, as it was originally called, in the Department of Defense.  We know they were involved in the UFO investigation too, even if we don't have all the details.  They were involved very early on.

But the point is that the JRDB was supposed to be an inter-service agency that worked on behalf of all branches of the military, although naturally they all had their own research and development branches.

[psyche101]

JimOberg, on 20 November 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

Stu Harris suggests this:
http://uscode.house....d/pls/35C17.txt

The point is -- all this fuss about what the partial phrase is supposed to say, is bogus, because Hoagwash dropped the conditional clause but provided the remaining sentence with quotation marks and a full stop.

In other words, he faked it.

And apparently some people still are falling for the scam.

Ahh, that is a better link, it is chapter 17 only, as opposed to the entire 37 chapters.

Hoaxland is consistant, if anything

[psyche101]

TheMacGuffin, on 20 November 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

It's an interesting question, given a situation where rivalry between the services and agencies is constant, and we know that the Army, Navy, Air Force, CIA, AEC, FBI and God knows who else are all running their own UFO investigations.  

Leave aside for the moment what they found out or that we don't have all their records, we know these investigations existed.  I think the Army had the original one in fact, the IPU, and it probably did have the capability of recovering whatever it wanted on the ground, even if it couldn't do much of anything about the air or the ocean without cooperation from the other services.

The Army has its own security, intelligence and investigatory agencies, just like all the other services, and of course its own overseas intelligence network.  

I think the president would have intervened in this hodgepodge to try to bring some semblance of order into the chaos and set up some kind of inter-agency group.  I don't know how well that would have functioned, given the ongoing rivalries.

After all, the CIA was supposed to be THE intelligence agency that coordinated the efforts of all the others, especially in analysis and distribution of intelligence, but things didn't work out that way.  In practice, about 80% of the intelligence budget was controlled by the military agencies and they were never going to let the CIA tell them their business.  The military also kept its thumb on the NSA, the communications intelligence agency, because that had always been a special area of importance to the armed services--breaking the enemy codes.  No way would they ever give that up.  

So in practice, attempts at coordinating the rival bureaucracies have often had limited success, even after the big reorganization the occurred because of September 11, 2001.  

It's a chronic issue that has generated a vast amount of literature, and it happens in just about every area, not only UFOs.

Thanks, I appreciate your take on the overall picture, It's the one I think we need to get to line up before any claims can move further than they have for the last 60 years or so. Knowing both sides of the story helps stability I feel.

OBerth and Goddard predate the IPU by quite a bit, and get quite some mention in the UFO circles, yet the claims is they have been covered up, be that true or not, would not some of the earlier V2 programs and the like have something covert of this order that predates the IPU? I would think some tantalising (genuinely tantalising LOL) titbits might be floating around out there?

[TheMacGuffin]

psyche101, on 21 November 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

Thanks, I appreciate your take on the overall picture, It's the one I think we need to get to line up before any claims can move further than they have for the last 60 years or so. Knowing both sides of the story helps stability I feel.

OBerth and Goddard predate the IPU by quite a bit, and get quite some mention in the UFO circles, yet the claims is they have been covered up, be that true or not, would not some of the earlier V2 programs and the like have something covert of this order that predates the IPU? I would think some tantalising (genuinely tantalising LOL) titbits might be floating around out there?

I always say that the best way to deal with the UFO subject is to go back to the beginning, back to World War II and then all the early activities at White Sands.

[TheMacGuffin]

Getting back to Kern Johnston, he has quite a lot to say about UFOs and "artifacts" on the moon.  I will have to look into this further, but there was a thread about him here at UM back in 2007.

If I ever heard of him before, I've forgotten about it.

http://www.google.co...pP0Wz866omAZptg


It was an very short thread.  Oberg jumped all over him, so in my book that means he can't be all bad.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 21 November 2012 - 12:39 AM.

[TheMacGuffin]

The blue lights do not seem to appear in every picture from film roll 66 on Apollo 14.  I don't see any in this one, for example.






This is not a UFO picture, of course, but just sunrise on the moon.

http://www.google.co..._ZW9WDsIntVE8XA

[validator]

Here's the deal on Ken Johnston's famous photo collection. These were 10x8 prints, not reversals or digitals, and they were 30 years old when they got into Richard Hoagland's hands.

So now, what happens? Hoagland scans them, using consumer-grade equipment in a non-clean environment (his office). Any smearing, scratching, fibers or dirt on his scanner glass will show up preferentially wherever the print is black, especially when he boosts both brightness and contrast to the point of absurdity. And where are the Apollo Hasselblad images black? Why, in the lunar sky of course.

So here we have Richard Hoagland & Mike Bara proclaiming that Ken's photos "reveal what NASA is hiding." What nonsense. The NASA digitals were, of course, scanned in by professionals using professional equipment in a clean room, and working from the original reversals or maybe internegs. It's not exactly surprising that they are cleaner than Hoagland's smeared skies.

Exhibit A: This picture that Bara used in his recent book Ancient Aliens on the Moon, claiming that it shows glass structures miles high over the Moon. The comment is not mine, but it might as well have been.

https://picasaweb.go...528751243881490

Ladies and gentlemen, this is fraud, plain and simple.

Edited by validator, 21 November 2012 - 01:06 AM.

[TheMacGuffin]

Ken Johnston also claims that NASA ordered him to destroy UFO pictures from the Apollo missions.  He wrote a book about the NASA cover up called Dark Mission.

http://darkmission.b...commentors.html


Oberg made a big production over him holding degrees in theology and metaphysics but maybe he got religion after he left NASA.  Johnston wrote in response:


"I hold a BS in Aerospace Engineering from Oklahoma City University and two advanced degrees from the Reformed Baptist Seminary, one in Theology and the other PhD in Metaphysics.

I worked at the Johnson Space Center in Houston, TX from 1966 through 1980 for several prime contractors. During the first half of the Apollo program I worked for the Grumman Aerospace Corp. as a Consultant Pilot and Astronaut Liaison officer. I substituted for the Astronauts during over 3,000 hours at the controls of the Lunar Module space craft. There were 5 of us with Grumman that were the test pilots on the LM. One of us had to be in the spacecraft at all times when there was an astronaut present to answer any questions they might have and to help teach them how to fly it. The five of us went through the same training that the Astronauts had including physical fitness, zero-g training, avionics, propulsion, astronautics, etc.


After the Apollo 11 landing on the Moon most of us engineers with Grumman got (RIF) laid off so I moved over to the Lunar Receiving Laboratory where I became the Manager of the Data and Photo Control department which put me in control of all mission photography,which is how I managed to be able to get a set of pictures donated to my Alma mater. Later I worked on the Shuttle Space Suit assembly as an engineer and test subject where I flew hundreds of parabolas in NASA’s KC-135, also known as the “Vomit Comet”. I have done vacuum chamber tests and underwater Zero-G tests. While in the USMC I flew faster than twice the speed of sound in the F-4 Phantom back in 1964. I have flown at over 60,000 feet altitude and know what it is like to be up where the air is really thin. Later I worked for Martin Marietta at Vandenberg AFB during the construction of the Shuttle Launch facility called “Slick 6”. In 1984 I went to work for the Boeing Company where I retired in 1998 as a Boeing 737 Flight Instructor."

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 21 November 2012 - 01:09 AM.

[TheMacGuffin]

Here were have Ken Johnston at the Smithsonian, talking about his career and NASA fakery and image manipulation.  It looks like he is just visiting the Smithsonian here, not giving an official lecture, but I think he has some interesting stories to tell.

He had twelve different filing cabinets full of NASA pictures, and he was told to destroy three complete sets of pictures, but he took another one home without NASA knowing about it.

He definitely sounds like he knows what he's talking about when it comes to the lunar landings.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 21 November 2012 - 01:12 AM.

[psyche101]

What about Ken's photo collection, and his claims of colours on the moon?


Every bit of that is poppycock. Anyone can prove this to themselves by booking some time a their local observatory.


If he has one genuine bone in his body, why is he lying through his teeth about the moon structures and colours?

[JimOberg]

psyche101, on 21 November 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

OBerth and Goddard predate the IPU by quite a bit, and get quite some mention in the UFO circles, yet the claims is they have been covered up, be that true or not, would not some of the earlier V2 programs and the like have something covert of this order that predates the IPU? I would think some tantalising (genuinely tantalising LOL) titbits might be floating around out there?

Goddard? I missed the story about him and UFOs.  Did you mean von Braun?

[JimOberg]

TheMacGuffin, on 21 November 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

Here were have Ken Johnston at the Smithsonian, talking about his career and NASA fakery and image manipulation.  It looks like he is just visiting the Smithsonian here, not giving an official lecture, but I think he has some interesting stories to tell.

He had twelve different filing cabinets full of NASA pictures, and he was told to destroy three complete sets of pictures, but he took another one home without NASA knowing about it.

He definitely sounds like he knows what he's talking about when it comes to the lunar landings.

Sure he sounds knowledgeable to the unknowledged, which are his target audience. See the little red target illuminator dancing on your chest?

Ken was never a pilot of any kind -- that was a tall tale. Grumman says they checked their 'test pilot' list and he wasn't on it. He claims the Smithsonian LM was 'his' ship but he was never in it [the test engineers who were are all documented -- his name isn't on any list].

Ken's degrees from the 'Baptist Theological Seminary' were mail-order certificates from a PO Box in Denver. When he volunteered for NASA's Solar System Ambassador program, he listed a 'PhD' in Physics [he called it Meta Physics], and when they later asked him for proof, he resigned.

The Apollo photos he used in his job as a shipping clerk in the LRL filled about two shelf feet, and he gave that set to his university. They lost them.  
There never was any 'department' he was head of. As a HS grad with some technical training, he was a line worker -- and did honorable service. But he never was in charge of anybody else or of any original or master moon photos. Apparently as the LRL work was shutting down, he was told to clean out the bookshelves. Since there were at least a hundred other sets of these reference photos around, nobody seemed to think theyh needed extra copies taking up space.

His story about deleted film of alien structures inside Tsiolkovskiy Crater has one problem. The mission he claims he saw them from never flew over that crater, or even close enough slant range to see into it.

But he seems to have assumed that nobody in his target audience would ever know the diufference, or care. Seems he gauged you accurately, MacG.

How does it feel for the confabulators to have so little respect for your intelligence, and to prove them right?