4018 replies to this topic

[Van Gorp]

Just an idea, maybe going further then the exact interpretation of OLB .... could be applicable for interpretation of much of old historical/mythical accounts.

What if (and i know maybe this is subject for a total seperate thread) but we can apply it also to OLB.
common tribe/personal names like Magyars/Kathars/Minerva/Adela/ ... are more generalisations for a group of people/religion/culture followers than only geographic or personal pinpoints.

Some examples:

• the rape of a woman does come in in quite a few and different accounts: could be the symbolical rape of a religious thought/people/culture by a more aggressive cultural movement 'spoiling' the former belief/culture (in a sense like capitalism/consumarism is spoiling the folk christmas idea of just being together celebrating the birth of the new sun)
  
• the lands under Magy's rule could be more/else than the geographical entities/lands conquered by Magyars but could also point to the upcoming influence of the rule of the Magister (generaal overste)like we have with the Dominican order which was at a certain time in middleages given the task to help carry out the inquisition
  
• Angelare/Sturar/Liethouwers all pointing also to a kind of 'profession' or common activity
  
• Maybe all these people are not that much to be located besides each other but part of a bigger whole where indeed the Angelare were not living in the woods :-) but maybe also not a real seperate tribe as we understand it as forming a fix geographicaly seperate tribe.
  
• the reason that the Caninefates were not that a big 'tribe' could then be explained as not being of a large number just because they were the (selected) cavalerie

[Abramelin]

Just an idea, maybe going further then the exact interpretation of OLB .... could be applicable for interpretation of much of old historical/mythical accounts.

What if (and i know maybe this is subject for a total seperate thread) but we can apply it also to OLB.
common tribe/personal names like Magyars/Kathars/Minerva/Adela/ ... are more generalisations for a group of people/religion/culture followers than only geographic or personal pinpoints.

ME: Where do the Kathars show up in the OLB? I did mention them in part -1 of this thread, btw.

Some examples:

the rape of a woman does come in in quite a few and different accounts: could be the symbolical rape of a religious thought/people/culture by a more aggressive cultural movement 'spoiling' the former belief/culture (in a sense like capitalism/consumarism is spoiling the folk christmas idea of just being together celebrating the birth of the new sun)
  
ME: the OLB does mention women being raped, but those stories do not sound that symbolical to me

the lands under Magy's rule could be more/else than the geographical entities/lands conquered by Magyars but could also point to the upcoming influence of the rule of the Magister (generaal overste)like we have with the Dominican order which was at a certain time in middleages given the task to help carry out the inquisition
  
ME: Magister is Latin for "master" or "teacher."   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magister

Angelare/Sturar/Liethouwers all pointing also to a kind of 'profession' or common activity
  
ME: Could also be based on socalled 'folk-etymology' and nothing to do with the real meaning of their names.
Like explaining the name 'Crete' as (in Dutch:) 'Kreet' (= scream) because these people screamed, and so on. As though other people never scream, or angle, or steer, or.. and so on.

Maybe all these people are not that much to be located besides each other but part of a bigger whole where indeed the Angelare were not living in the woods :-) but maybe also not a real seperate tribe as we understand it as forming a fix geographicaly seperate tribe.

ME: the OLB tells us the Fryans were known under many different names, and then we get that whole list of names of which you quoted three. The OLB also tells us where these sub-tribes lived, and quite detailed.
  
the reason that the Caninefates were not that a big 'tribe' could then be explained as not being of a large number just because they were the (selected) cavalerie

ME: But so were the Batavians, and even much more so.

++++

But I think I get what you are trying to convey: we should not consider the OLB to be a literal account (chronicle) of real historical events, but rather a symbolical way of showing how different 'philosophies' and/or cultures clash(ed).

Isn't that exactly what people like Goffe Jensma said?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 20 November 2012 - 11:11 AM.

[Abramelin]

In this post,  
http://www.unexplain...#entry4533054  
I explained what kind of material the Fryans used to make paper.

But there is more.

What kind of paper was used for the MS as we know it?

That depends on what you believe: is the OLB a recent fabrication or an authentic, 13th century MS.

OK, here it goes:



Okke min svn.

Thissa boka mot i mith lif aend sêle wârja. Se vmbifattath thju skêdnise fon vs êle folk âk fon vsa êthlum. Vrlêden jêr haeb ik tham ut-er flod hred tolik mith thi aend thinra moder. Tha hja wêron wet wrden; thêr thrvch gvngon hja aefternei vrdarva. Vmbe hja navt to vrlysa haeb ik-ra vp wrlandisk pampyer wrskrêven.

Okke my son.

You must preserve these books with body and soul. They contain the history of all our people, as well as of our forefathers. Last year I saved them in the flood, as well as you and your mother; but they got wet, and therefore began to perish. In order not to lose them, I copied them on foreign paper.


As you see, "wrlandisk" is being translated as "foreign".  In old-fashioned Dutch that would be "overlands"., or 'from abroad".

ov-er-lan-d-ich 1, ov-er-lon-d-ich, ov-er-len-d-ich, afries., Adj.: nhd. ausländisch;
ne. foreign; Hw.: s. lan-d; Q.: W; E.: s. ov-er, *lan-d-ich

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-O.pdf


Now, if you believe the MS is what it purports to be, a 13th century copy of a copy of a copy..... of an ancient family chronicle, then that translation will suffice.

But if you - like me - believe the MS is a 19th century creation, then things become a bit different.


overlandsch, overlansch, averlentsch, averlensch

Dutch:
Uit of van het “overlant”, uit of van het eene of andere ver gelegen land (vgl. overlant), bepaaldelijk uit dat gedeelte van Duitschland, dat gewoonlijk met den naam “Overland” wordt bestempeld, uit Westfalen en de Rijnprovincie.

English:
From or of the "overlant", from some or other far away country, specifically from that part of Germany that's commonly labeled "Overland", from Westphalia and the Rhine Province.

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...db=MNW&id=40684
http://en.wikipedia....e_of_Westphalia
http://en.wikipedia..../Rhine_Province
http://commons.wikim...ince.svg&page=1


That's quite a large area, but it's bordering at the east / north-east of Maastricht:

Within the first few years after the appearance of the Oera Linda Book, its recent origin was established not only based on the exceptional claims being made, but also because of a number of anachronisms it contained. Research was performed on the quality of the paper, and it was claimed to have come from a papermill in Maastricht circa 1850.

http://en.wikipedia....Oera_Linda_Book


But we can narrow the area down.

There are also a couple of cities in east Germany and Switzerland with the name Oberland (German for "Overland") :

• Oberland am Rennsteig,
  
• Vogtländisches Oberland,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberland

The cities called "Oberland" in Germany are in the German federal state of Thuringia (GER: Thüringen).

What a nice coincidence... the German friend and neighbour of Cornelis Over de Linden in Den Helder (Netherlands), Ernst Stadermann (born in Ohrdruf, bookbinder in Erfurt, lived also in Hildburghausen - source:   http://rodinbook.nl/...adermann.html  ) came from that same federal state. This guy is important as I hope you all know, because he had a lot of knowledge of ancient languages, of book binding, of philosophies, he was a rebel, and a lot more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuringia

Did he bring the paper along when he fled from Germany? The same type of paper Over de Linden/he/whoever used to create this 'ancient manuscript'?

.++

EDIT:

Knul, quit messing with your 'rodinbook' website.

Every time I post a link to your site, it is dead within a day.

EDIT:

It's ok now, no, it's even better, lol.




.

Edited by Abramelin, 20 November 2012 - 08:58 PM.

[Van Gorp]

From the same webpage of Knul i read:

Mr E. Stadermann, bookbinder and interpreter to Den Helder.
This person was highly developed and highly gifted, had the same ideas as in the book are displayed.

???

So he was highly developed and had the same ideas as expressed in OLB.  
This looks to me more an affirmation that what is expressed in OLB is no rascale.

[Abramelin]

And to me it looks like the one who delivered the paper for the OLB, the same guy with knowledge of how to make paper look 'ancient', the same guy who knew of old languages. also delivered the ideas expressed in the OLB.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 21 November 2012 - 03:58 AM.

[NO-ID-EA]

i must have missunderstood you here Abe , you cant be saying that in the 19th Century these men went to the trouble of forging a book , composing different parts of it that they pretended were written in different ages ,with the different spellings of the same words ( as Otharus was pointing out )to make it more convincing.

and then told us where they got the modern paper from , surely that does not make any sense ??

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 21 November 2012 - 08:41 AM.

[Abramelin]

NO-ID-EA, on 21 November 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

i must have missunderstood you here Abe , you cant be saying that in the 19th Century these men went to the trouble of forging a book , composing different parts of it that they pretended were written in different ages ,with the different spellings of the same words ( as Otharus was pointing out )to make it more convincing.

and then told us where they got the modern paper from , surely that does not make any sense ??

They did not tell us directly where the paper came from: the only word is "wrlandisk", and could indeed mean nothing but "foreign" or "overlands" in old-fashened Dutch.

But it's at least an interesting coincidence that this Stadermann was born in and lived and worked close by the Thüringer "Overlands".

And what is sense? If you want to make money by creating a hoax like an 'ancient manuscript', you will make sure you will leave out any anachronisms or other mistakes.

If it is supposed to be some sort of elaborate joke, you enter things only some will understand and let them and you have a good laugh at those who fall for it.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 20 November 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

In this post,  
http://www.unexplain...#entry4533054  
I explained what kind of material the Fryans used to make paper.

[...]

There are also a couple of cities in east Germany and Switzerland with the name Oberland (German for "Overland") :

• Oberland am Rennsteig,
  
• Vogtländisches Oberland,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberland

The cities called "Oberland" in Germany are in the German federal state of Thuringia (GER: Thüringen).

What a nice coincidence... the German friend and neighbour of Cornelis Over de Linden in Den Helder (Netherlands), Ernst Stadermann (born in Ohrdruf, bookbinder in Erfurt, lived also in Hildburghausen - source:   http://rodinbook.nl/...adermann.html  ) came from that same federal state. This guy is important as I hope you all know, because he had a lot of knowledge of ancient languages, of book binding, of philosophies, he was a rebel, and a lot more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuringia

Did he bring the paper along when he fled from Germany? The same type of paper Over de Linden/he/whoever used to create this 'ancient manuscript'?

.++

EDIT:

Knul, quit messing with your 'rodinbook' website.

Every time I post a link to your site, it is dead within a day.

EDIT:

It's ok now, no, it's even better, lol.




.

The word wrlandisk = foreign belongs to the text by Halbertsma, not to the supposed translation by Stadermann. It must be a coincidence, but a nice one.

[Knul]

The story of the OLB before Over de Linden showed the manuscript pertains to the period of time from 1845 to 1867, which equals with the arrival of Stadermann in Den Helder in 1845 and his dead April 13th, 1867. I found, that Stadermann founded a bookshop and printery in Den Helder, besides he did some translation work for the marine. Probably Stadermann wanted to print the OLB in his own printery.

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 21 November 2012 - 03:39 AM, said:

And to me it looks like the one who delivered the paper for the OLB, the same guy with knowledge of how to make paper look 'ancient', the same guy who knew of old languages. also delivered the ideas expressed in the OLB.
.

Hmm, let's take that as possibility: if not genuine manuscript, he delivered the ideas.
But he himself believed in the ideas expressed, though highly educated?

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 21 November 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

The word wrlandisk = foreign belongs to the text by Halbertsma, not to the supposed translation by Stadermann. It must be a coincidence, but a nice one.

And how about this coincidence:


19300000 J.H. Halbertsma. Fryslân (Wize út Berner Oberland) op 'e nij biwurke fen J.Paardekoper. Ljouwert, 1930.
19300000 J.H. Halbertsma. Friesland (Jokes from Berner Oberland), according to a new edition by J.Paardekoper. Leeuwarden, 1930.

http://www.rodinbook...gievervolg.html

Alas. Berner Oberland is in Switzerland.

+++

Waren de oorspronkelijke bewoners van het Berner Oberland Friezen?.
Were the original inhabitants of Berner Oberland Frisians?

http://books.google....AAJ&redir_esc=y

This is about the legend I have mentioned in part -1- of this thread.

It's this post:  http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&st=8430#entry4139552



According to legend, the Frisians had a colony in Switzerland. They called it "Su-rijck", which means "South State", and which is supposed to be the origin of the name Zürich.

The Frisians had created that colony amongst descendents of their ancestors, ancestors who had settled there on their way to Rome around 111 BC.  And it was 'half-way to Rome', so they called it "haele wey" which later became "Helvetia".


.

Edited by Abramelin, 21 November 2012 - 05:38 PM.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 21 November 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

The story of the OLB before Over de Linden showed the manuscript pertains to the period of time from 1845 to 1867, which equals with the arrival of Stadermann in Den Helder in 1845 and his dead April 13th, 1867. I found, that Stadermann founded a bookshop and printery in Den Helder, besides he did some translation work for the marine. Probably Stadermann wanted to print the OLB in his own printery.

Knul, now you are here again, I wanted to ask you: is it possible Stadermann used paper from Germany for his printshop, or that he had it sent over, or that his wife, who came to the Netherlands some time later, brought it along with her?


"Iedereen gevoelt wat een man als Cornelis over de Linden aan een vriend als Ernest Stadermann moest hebben. Van hoeveel nut kon Stadermann zijn vriend Cornelis over de Linden op taal-, aardrijks- en geschiedkundig gebied, in 't verschaffen van papier etc. niet zijn !!!' Bron: Dhr. Berk in J. Beckering Vinckers, Wie heeft het Oera Linda Boek geschreven, Kampen 1877."


Everyone feels what it must have been for a Cornelis Over de Linden to have a friend like Ernest Stadermann. How much could Stadermann have been of benefit to his friend Cornelis Over de Linden concerning language, geography and history, in providing paper, etc. !!! Source: Mr. Berk in J. Beckering Vincker's, "Who wrote the Oera Linda book?", Kampen 1977.

http://rodinbook.nl/olbstadermann.html

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, on 21 November 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

Hmm, let's take that as possibility: if not genuine manuscript, he delivered the ideas.
But he himself believed in the ideas expressed, though highly educated?

Considering Stadermann's revolutionary ideas for which he had to flee his home country, that might well be true.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 21 November 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

According to legend, the Frisians had a colony in Switzerland. They called it "Su-rijck", which means "South State", and which is supposed to be the origin of the name Zürich.

The Frisians had created that colony amongst descendents of their ancestors, ancestors who had settled there on their way to Rome around 111 BC.  And it was 'half-way to Rome', so they called it "haele wey" which later became "Helvetia".

A whole book about it (in Dutch):

OVER EENE NEDERZETTING OF VOLKPLANTING DER FRIESEN IN ZWITSERLAND,
BENEVENS EENIGE AANMERKINGEN over DEN TOCHT DER FRIESEN NAAR ROME.
(About a Frisian settlement or colony in Switzerland, and some remarks about the journey of the Frisians to Rome)

http://images.tresoa...0001-1839-1.pdf
http://www30.us.arch...chgoog_djvu.txt

•E. Binkes, 'Over eene nederzetting of volkplanting der Friesen in Zwitserland, benevens eenige aanmerkingen over den tocht der Friesen naar Rome,' De Vrije Fries 1 (1839) 1-63 [online].

http://www.friesgeno...ands/dvfina.htm

.

Edited by Abramelin, 21 November 2012 - 07:07 PM.

[Abramelin]

This one is for Otharus:

"Ecce cadit Mater Frisiae" = "Here falls the Mother of Frisia"

Vroonen.


(Overwijn thought it meant they pulled down a statue of Freya, but he just made that one up)

http://www.dwangburc...wb/phebust2.htm

http://www.archiefal...toID=PR 1002831

http://www.archiefal...3&frase=alkmaar prent -opvoering&rpp=30&cp=24&CollectionID=5&RecordID=15875&PhotoID=PR 1002831

http://www.archive.o...kngoog_djvu.txt





.

Edited by Abramelin, 21 November 2012 - 11:32 PM.