98 replies to this topic

[redhen]

Beckys_Mom, on 10 November 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

I suggest you scroll back and re-read..  The OP is not saying Christianity is to blame for overpopulation,  the OP  is saying that so many fundamentalist Christians think over population is a myth

Ok, gotcha. But there also many non-Christians who think that overpopulation is a myth. These are probably the same people who think that the ozone hole "just happened" without any human intervention.  /shrug

[TrueBeliever]

Seeker79, on 10 November 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Actually it does and helps a whole lot. I have a degree an economics... Which interestingly enough is what we are talking about ultimately. I'm not judging you I was speaking generally after all I have a Toyota tundra and 3 kids and a party pontoon  boat.

I also study permaculture and have a permaculture garden, I also teach traditional native American skills.

Why have a good job? To make more money. Why? To consume more.

Personal responsibility is the key. You are dead on. But it's not totally about population. If the world consumed 20 times less, then it could handle ten times more. Population is a gnat in a swarm of locusts. It's our way of living that's the problem. sustainable resources can go a long way,

Whatch the documentaries "fresh". "happy" "food matters".

By the way good health care for everyone is not going to help with population? just saying.

As I suggested earlier. Population will evenchually reach parity with sustainability, the rythems of nature knows what it's doing and we do not live outside the circle. We should do our part and focus on Stewartship rather than rape. Once we do that the rest will fall inline. Unfortunately I'm not so optimistic everyone can ultimately make the necessary sacrifices. It's hard enough talking my wife into certain things and breaking my own consumer habits.

you  make very good points. And I really agree on the consumer habits....we are a needy bunch of people aren't we? I have much to learn no doubt about it. i can only go by what I know now of course. But I think you right with the economic angle. I just think the universe has finite resources. But i am no scientist either so who knows?
I would hate having to limit the amount of kids a person has. I have 2 children and I lost two.........I actually at one point(when  much younger) wanted six kids! My own Brady Bunch! lol.........

BY the healthcare I mean I just want everyone to have a quality of life. Overpopulation makes adequate healthcare much harder to provide....I am for quality of life above all....... I don't know. life is complicated damn it. Why can't ANYTHING be simple? lol

[redhen]

Seeker79, on 10 November 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Personal responsibility is the key. You are dead on. But it's not totally about population. If the world consumed 20 times less, then it could handle ten times more. Population is a gnat in a swarm of locusts. It's our way of living that's the problem. sustainable resources can go a long way,

Watch the documentaries "fresh". "happy" "food matters".

Here's a visually stunning video on the darker aspects of rampant consumerism.

[Seeker79]

Beckys_Mom, on 10 November 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

Same with my husbands own business..  The harder he works, the more business he gets.. all for the money...We also save quite a bit too for our kids future..

I work for him part time, but I don't earn a penny  ... The cheap git! lol

Right... That's the way it works. Everyone striving to make things better for themselves. We are not going to be able to change human nature , but we can get it to coincide with the rythems of nature.

[Mr Right Wing]

TrueBeliever, on 10 November 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

I certainly think overpopulation is a real problem and affects everything in our life, from jobs availability to appropriation of natural resources........I am interested in hearing from the fundamentalist christians who believe overpopulation is a myth.......I just do not understand how they do not see the issues involved. Science and math are not their strong point but come on.......it is so obvious!

Over population is a myth but I'm no Bible basher.

Science and technology does not say we cant sustain ourselves the greens do. In reality we have the technology to support a far larger population than 6 billion.

[TrueBeliever]

Mr Right Wing, on 10 November 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

Over population is a myth but I'm no Bible basher.

Science and technology does not say we cant sustain ourselves the greens do. In reality we have the technology to support a far larger population than 6 billion.

I have to disagree with you on this. I see it as a problem ,and so do many scientists.

[Br Cornelius]

Mr Right Wing is a person of conviction, but if you asked him to support his conviction you will be left wanting.

Technology cannot be a solution to overexploitation in a system of finite resources. At some point there are always limits to resources. The current major pressing limit is energy and water. The only solution to the water problem is reduced consumption, or energy intensive desalination. Since energy is resource limited (with no cheap plentiful alternative on the horizon) there is no cost effective way to overcome the water resource crisis.

Clean water is very expensive and ultimately is the whole basis of life on this planet.

Br Cornelius

[Mr Right Wing]

Br Cornelius, on 10 November 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

Mr Right Wing is a person of conviction, but if you asked him to support his conviction you will be left wanting.

Technology cannot be a solution to overexploitation in a system of finite resources. At some point there are always limits to resources. The current major pressing limit is energy and water. The only solution to the water problem is reduced consumption, or energy intensive desalination. Since energy is resource limited (with no cheap plentiful alternative on the horizon) there is no cost effective way to overcome the water resource crisis.

Clean water is very expensive and ultimately is the whole basis of life on this planet.

Br Cornelius

I always provide logical well supported arguments. That is unless the object of discussion is so basic most sane people dont require it. If you think of any limitations I will gladly show you how they could easily be overcome.

So your two points -
1. Energy - There is no energy problem. Every time we approach capacity we build more power plants and this will continue onwards over the centuries. If by energy shortage you mean petrol then I hate to point it out to you but electric cars have been invented.
2. Water - At this point I ask you for evidence that producing drinking water is expensive because I know it to be fantasy. Where I live (north-west UK) they pump sea water into an underground reservoir and de-salinate it. My water bills are normal and not substisized.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 10 November 2012 - 08:32 PM.

[Br Cornelius]

Mr Right Wing, on 10 November 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

I always provide logical well supported arguments. That is unless the object of discussion is so basic most sane people dont require it. If you think of any limitations I will gladly show you how they could easily be overcome.

So your two points -
1. Energy - There is no energy problem. Every time we approach capacity we build more power plants and this will continue onwards over the centuries. If by energy shortage you mean petrol then I hate to point it out to you but electric cars have been invented.
2. Water - At this point I ask you for evidence that producing drinking water is expensive because I know it to be fantasy. Where I live (north-west UK) they pump sea water into an underground reservoir and de-salinate it. My water bills are normal and not substisized.

Can you supply the details of the particular desalination plant they use. Can you show us how much it costs per m3 to produce that water. I suspect that if it actually exists at all, then it represents a tiny fraction of your actual supply. England is blessed with one of the most reliable water supplies in the world, so drawing inferences from it about the world water supply is hardly informative is it now. However, what is informative is that the South East of England is already facing sever issues with its water supply with proposals to pipe water down from the North of England.

Meanwhile in the place which supplies your daily bread they are draining their aquifers at a rate which cannot be replenished and cannot be replaced by desalination;

Quote

Irrigation has helped farmers feed a population that has now reached 7 billion people. But in many places farmers have overused underground aquifers that have taken thousands of years to form, drawing down the fossil water much faster than it can be replaced. The Ogallala aquifer in the American high plains, along with similar aquifers in Mexico, Eastern Europe, Egypt, Arabia, Iran, India and China, represent the crisis zones for humanity’s groundwater footprint, according to a new analysis published in Nature on August 9.

http://blogs.scienti...s-breadbaskets/

When you get that well reasoned argument together - let me know



Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 10 November 2012 - 08:54 PM.

[Bling]

This planet always sorts out natures problems...and us human will be no exception to this. It would be ignorant to think that humans will always populate the earth when there are plenty of other species becoming extinct all the time. It would only take a few extreme viruses to control our population problem. Do we really think we are powerful enough to control the world's population? We are a guest on earth, and if we abuse our hosts kind hospitality we will be dealt with somehow. This is my humble opinion anyway.

[Br Cornelius]

Bling, on 10 November 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

This planet always sorts out natures problems...and us human will be no exception to this. It would be ignorant to think that humans will always populate the earth when there are plenty of other species becoming extinct all the time. It would only take a few extreme viruses to control our population problem. Do we really think we are powerful enough to control the world's population? We are a guest on earth, and if we abuse our hosts kind hospitality we will be dealt with somehow. This is my humble opinion anyway.

It need not be this way. If we treated the false god of "Growth at any cost" for the simple flawed idea it actually is, then we could reorganize our world to live sustainably with a steady population and stable closed cycle resource usage. None of this is impossible - and there is nothing inevitable about our disappearance from the planet - unless we choose the path of ignorance.

Br Cornelius

[Seeker79]

Br Cornelius, on 10 November 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

Mr Right Wing is a person of conviction, but if you asked him to support his conviction you will be left wanting.

Technology cannot be a solution to overexploitation in a system of finite resources. At some point there are always limits to resources. The current major pressing limit is energy and water. The only solution to the water problem is reduced consumption, or energy intensive desalination. Since energy is resource limited (with no cheap plentiful alternative on the horizon) there is no cost effective way to overcome the water resource crisis.

Clean water is very expensive and ultimately is the whole basis of life on this planet.

Br Cornelius

But what you are failing to realize is that that clean water is not being used for drinking and washing. Most of it is going towards unsustainable agricultural practices. Create a localized, permaculture, sustainable food system, and the water issues dry up. All kinds of options including aqua culture, rhythm planting and diverse land use. The problem is not population. It is lak of understanding and profit driven agriculture. There is more than enough water and earth. The problem is that the land is not being cultivated properly. It's not even really more profitable. Look at the organic farmer on that documentary "fresh" he is producing $3000 an acre and his land looks lush and healthy while just over the fence it's dry and decaying. I use some of these same techniques in my garden. Between my chickens, veggies, and soon rabbits. I could pretty much feed myself. I have a whole family to feed, but we always have fresh veggies and fresh organic eggs.

[Br Cornelius]

Seeker79, on 10 November 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

But what you are failing to realize is that that clean water is not being used for drinking and washing. Most of it is going towards unsustainable agricultural practices. Create a localized, permaculture, sustainable food system, and the water issues dry up. All kinds of options including aqua culture, rhythm planting and diverse land use. The problem is not population. It is lak of understanding and profit driven agriculture. There is more than enough water and earth. The problem is that the land is not being cultivated properly. It's not even really more profitable. Look at the organic farmer on that documentary "fresh" he is producing $3000 an acre and his land looks lush and healthy while just over the fence it's dry and decaying. I use some of these same techniques in my garden. Between my chickens, veggies, and soon rabbits. I could pretty much feed myself. I have a whole family to feed, but we always have fresh veggies and fresh organic eggs.

You are advocating a complete redesign of society from the bottom to the top - that's fine by me, but it ain't going to happen before the systems on which we daily rely collapse around our ears. The world we live in has finite agricultural land and finite available water. It is organized in such a way that 80% of our populations live in cities which can only readily be supplied through conventional supply chains. Disband the cities and place people into sustainable units of population and the vision you suggest may (I emphasis may because there is very good evidence that current food production can only be achieved through artificial fossil fuel derived Nitrogen fertilizers) be achievable.

In the world in which we actually live we are already hitting various resource limits which are causing real hardship in the population of 7billion. With populations projected to increase towards 10billion in the next 40yrs, and oil based energy projected to be in decline from now onwards - thats just not very sustainable.

Br Cornelius

[Seeker79]

Bling, on 10 November 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

This planet always sorts out natures problems...and us human will be no exception to this. It would be ignorant to think that humans will always populate the earth when there are plenty of other species becoming extinct all the time. It would only take a few extreme viruses to control our population problem. Do we really think we are powerful enough to control the world's population? We are a guest on earth, and if we abuse our hosts kind hospitality we will be dealt with somehow. This is my humble opinion anyway.

True humans will not always ocupy the earth, but we get to decide if that's because we died off or evolved. Quite obviously the reason there is life on earth is because some species managed to evolve. Im shooting for evolution myself, I'm not to keen on extinction.

Edited by Seeker79, 10 November 2012 - 09:22 PM.

[Mr Right Wing]

Br Cornelius, on 10 November 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

Can you supply the details of the particular desalination plant they use. Can you show us how much it costs per m3 to produce that water. I suspect that if it actually exists at all, then it represents a tiny fraction of your actual supply. England is blessed with one of the most reliable water supplies in the world, so drawing inferences from it about the world water supply is hardly informative is it now. However, what is informative is that the South East of England is already facing sever issues with its water supply with proposals to pipe water down from the North of England.

Meanwhile in the place which supplies your daily bread they are draining their aquifers at a rate which cannot be replenished and cannot be replaced by desalination;

http://blogs.scienti...s-breadbaskets/

When you get that well reasoned argument together - let me know

Br Cornelius

I need to prove this, i need to prove that, how about for once you put your money where your mouth is.

Then go compare it to this - http://en.wikipedia....ki/Desalination - which tells you the world has 14,451 desalination plants in operation and even tells you its heavily used in Austrailia. Not just for drinking water but for irrigation. If you scroll down it will even tell you we have large scale desalination plants here in the UK.

I dont mind others offering opinions but you show yourself up when you dont check your facts yet insist everyone else is wrong in the way that you do.