251 replies to this topic

[Mr Walker]

fullywired, on 20 February 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

I think you must be a frustrated bricklayer your obsession with brick walls is weird.,I don't think you know what proof is nor evidence, neither of which you have provided but then i can't really ask you to provide what doesn't exsist

fullywired

Never mind.

As all this lies outside your personal experience of solid reality ,it is fair enough for you to disbelieve it all. I know you are wrong but you are entitled to maintain your disbelief until your own experinces prove it wrong.

Before leaving this debate i just want to thank you. In trying to explain this to you, my subconscious was prompted to illustrate to me, perfectly, the difernce betwen imagination and reality. Last night i travelled to Canada. I walked through a brief but intense blizzard modifying my core body temperature to maintain warmth, and arrived on a hill top where a bus load of tourists were visiting an indigenous sacred site I admired the beauty of the landscape and explained to some of them how differnt it was to Australia.

Nearby, at a river, some children were playing. I taught them how to fly acros the river. The adults noticed, and thinking the river itself had some property of levitation, tried to fly across it and fell in. I explained that they had to be taught how to fly and showed them how to. In return they took me to a fair at a nearby village. I explained i had no canadian money but they shouted me to a wonderful smorgasboard of local produce, including many forms of salmon, and  dips, and a kind of tapas like selection of dishes. These included  a variety of candied fruits which were absolutley delicious

. . I lost track of my companion a halfling and my dog, finn, but i knew the halfling would be out for entertainment so i flew through the complex to a dining room where there was music, and flew over the heads of the diners. Sure enough my mate was there with finn. When my dog saw me he flew up and i grabbed him. In real life he weighs 46 kilograms but in my dram of course he weighed nothing and we flew over the diners together. As a party trick to wow the already enthralled crowd,  i showed them how to pass through a solid stone wall.

Al of this was, of course, entirely imagination, and even in my dream i was aware of this. I knew and understood why i was dreaming this and the symbolic connection to a number of things in my waking life, including our discusssions about walls and dogs.

And so I am very grateful to you for awakening my imagination ad providing me with a very amusing and intense dream scape last night. But I KNOW exactly what it was, its nature and its causation.

I am not at all confusing that state with a perfectly awake and mundane situation in which I encounter a very real and solid angel or manifestation of god.

[Mr Walker]

fullywired, on 20 February 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

Objective concrete verifiable  evidence

   fullywired

If you tried to walk through a brick wall, and found you could not, would that provide, for you,  objective, concrete, verifiable evidence of that walls existence? Given, perhaps, that you had also observed that others also walked through the door rather than trying to walk through the wall; that when a glass hit the wall it broke, and that people nailed pictures to it to support them on display.

[AquilaChrysaetos]

yearofthehater, on 17 February 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

once you get rid of all the religous spiritual stuff which doesn't have any real evidence whatsover to back it up the meaning of life is just survival of the fittest for every creature to be evolutionarily successful. We live in a meaningless cold and mechanical universe where the strong flourish and prosper at the expense of the weak and although this is savage and cruel it is the natural order. Religon was just one of those things we had to sheild us from the true bleakness of existence and even that has been shown up as the lie it is.

It is impossible to reconcile the concept of a benevolent creator with the abject reality of existence

As the great David Attenborough said when asked about his views on God:

''My response is that when Creationists talk about God creating every individual species as a separate act, they always instance hummingbirds, or orchids, sunflowers and beautiful things. But I tend to think instead of a parasitic worm that is boring through the eye of a boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa, [a worm] that's going to make him blind. And [I ask them], 'Are you telling me that the God you believe in, who you also say is an all-merciful God, who cares for each one of us individually, are you saying that God created this worm that can live in no other way than in an innocent child's eyeball? Because that doesn't seem to me to coincide with a God who's full of mercy'.<sup>''


Can any christian give a satisfactory answer to this? I doubt it.</sup>

First of all, there is loads of spiritual evidence out there, however the materialistic dogmas expressed by modern day atheistic scientists say otherwise. If you would actually research it instead of close your mind to anything non-materialistic, then you'll surely find some deep insight. One of the greatest of scientific studies shows that humans instinctively have some sort of sense of when we're being stared at, despite not having any of the other five senses to contribute to it. Scientists have no explaination as to what caused the big bang, or why the laws of the universe came into being. It's the whole "give me one miracle, and I'll explain all the rest" mentality, that honestly leaves more questions then answers, and is honestly backed by more faith than faith in a creator. Quite possibly the biggest question is why the laws of the universe are so perfectly fine tuned to support life. If just one law of the universe were to be ever so slightly tweaked, then life as we know it would be impossible. Not only that, but the mechanistic view of life leaves no answers as to how consciousness, or even some of our inherent abilities came into being. Every man made machine has a creator, so it's only logical that the largest machine known as the universe, as well as the many miniture machines called life, would have a creator as well. And there has been no machine that has been built that has shown any signs of consciousness.

Materialism leaves many more questions than answers, closes many doors to further scientific research, and leaves the delusion that it is backed by hard evidence when in reality it is not. In fact it is backed by less evidence and more faith than faith in a divine creator. Every watch has it's tinkerer.

As for the Christianity perspective, it as opposed to all other religions in the world just makes the most sense. It offers a true meaning of life, a true understanding of the nature of reality, and as opposed to other religions which are attempts for humans to connect with God, Christianity is God's attempt to connect with man. I also take this personal stance based on personal experiences within my own life, as well as many experiences in others.

My main point is, whether you accept the Christian perspective or not, the atheistic materialist perspective has become seriously out-dated, and in many people's opinion requires a more truly scientific approach based on open minded free scientific inquiry. The shear amount of evidence backing a more spiritual understanding of life cannot be ignored, and the materialistic dogmas of science need to be presented as what they truly are: beliefs backed by no evidence. Materialists just simply cannot present the "my view's backed by science" stance anymore. I hope and pray that you broaden your mind to other possibilities and chose to actually research the non-materialistic evidences of science as opposed to just blindly adhere to typical materialistic dogma.

[fullywired]

Mr Walker, on 20 February 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

Never mind.

As all this lies outside your personal experience of solid reality ,it is fair enough for you to disbelieve it all. I know you are wrong but you are entitled to maintain your disbelief until your own experinces prove it wrong.

Before leaving this debate i just want to thank you. In trying to explain this to you, my subconscious was prompted to illustrate to me, perfectly, the difernce betwen imagination and reality. Last night i travelled to Canada. I walked through a brief but intense blizzard modifying my core body temperature to maintain warmth, and arrived on a hill top where a bus load of tourists were visiting an indigenous sacred site I admired the beauty of the landscape and explained to some of them how differnt it was to Australia.

Nearby, at a river, some children were playing. I taught them how to fly acros the river. The adults noticed, and thinking the river itself had some property of levitation, tried to fly across it and fell in. I explained that they had to be taught how to fly and showed them how to. In return they took me to a fair at a nearby village. I explained i had no canadian money but they shouted me to a wonderful smorgasboard of local produce, including many forms of salmon, and  dips, and a kind of tapas like selection of dishes. These included  a variety of candied fruits which were absolutley delicious

. . I lost track of my companion a halfling and my dog, finn, but i knew the halfling would be out for entertainment so i flew through the complex to a dining room where there was music, and flew over the heads of the diners. Sure enough my mate was there with finn. When my dog saw me he flew up and i grabbed him. In real life he weighs 46 kilograms but in my dram of course he weighed nothing and we flew over the diners together. As a party trick to wow the already enthralled crowd,  i showed them how to pass through a solid stone wall.

Al of this was, of course, entirely imagination, and even in my dream i was aware of this. I knew and understood why i was dreaming this and the symbolic connection to a number of things in my waking life, including our discusssions about walls and dogs.

And so I am very grateful to you for awakening my imagination ad providing me with a very amusing and intense dream scape last night. But I KNOW exactly what it was, its nature and its causation.

I am not at all confusing that state with a perfectly awake and mundane situation in which I encounter a very real and solid angel or manifestation of god.

That's my boy !!!!!!

  fullywired

[fullywired]

Mr Walker, on 20 February 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

If you tried to walk through a brick wall, and found you could not, would that provide, for you,  objective, concrete, verifiable evidence of that walls existence? Given, perhaps, that you had also observed that others also walked through the door rather than trying to walk through the wall; that when a glass hit the wall it broke, and that people nailed pictures to it to support them on display.

There you go again with the walls


    fullywired

[Mr Walker]

fullywired, on 21 February 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

There you go again with the walls


fullywired

Bec ause walls are concrete (pun intended) shared examples of solidity.

As children one of the very first lessons we learn is that humans go through doors and not through walls. Thus walls are a very good object to try and illustrate how you and I establish, via evidences, the independent and concrete reality of objects in our local environment.  If i can walk through a wall, I am dreaming or hallucinationg. If I cannot, then i am awake, lucid and in the real world.

This is just as true for every solid  object with independent physical (objective) existence, including angels and gods. And the compounding of additional concrete and objective evidences, as well as physical solidity, supports the solidity and independent reality of walls (and angels and god.)

Eg Every one else walks around walls, and visible angels or manifestations of god if they are concrete and solid. If i can see an angel, and someone else goes out of their way to walk  around it, then it is real. If someone else walks through it, then it is an hallucination or non physical.

Edited by Mr Walker, 21 February 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Mr Walker]

fullywired, on 21 February 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

There you go again with the walls


fullywired

So, if you bumped into a wall and it left a bruise, or a broken nose, would you consider that objective evidence of the walls solidity and independent existence, or merely subjective opinion that the wall existed?

[dadatheking]

Blueogre2, on 12 January 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

Greetings forum. Today I had a random thought that I felt was good enough to write down and share. Many people have commented on the meaning of life, most of whom are far more qualified then I am to discuss such things, but nevertheless I felt I could throw my two cents in anyway. The real reason for living is not money, or pleasure, or even to serve other people. Neither is it found in devoting oneself to a god. No, the true meaning is in letting go of ones own humanity. Allow me to explain. Everything that has every been put forward as the goal of life is actually quite mundane when examined closely. Money is nice, but it won't satisfy all your needs. Pleasure is nice but it ultimately causes you to become intoxicated and lose sight of the big picture. Serving others is nice but in the end you will find that most people are not worth the effort. Devoting yourself to a religion is nice, but it can cause you to become disconected from reality. But what is truly good? Setting your sights on greater things beyond the limits of the human condition. Attempting to evolve into a higher state of being. How is this to be done? I myself do not know, but it seems to me that it would be worth investigating. But enough about my thoughts I want to know what others think

research "Ascension" it is exactly what you explain with more.

[Frank Merton]

Figure out the meaning of the universe and you'll be able to infer the meaning of life.

[fullywired]

Mr Walker, on 21 February 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

So, if you bumped into a wall and it left a bruise, or a broken nose, would you consider that objective evidence of the walls solidity and independent existence, or merely subjective opinion that the wall existed?

What on earth as this to do with evidenjce for god ,you are really grasping at straws


    fullywired

[Mr Walker]

fullywired, on 21 February 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

What on earth as this to do with evidenjce for god ,you are really grasping at straws


fullywired

In my life god is just as real and physical as walls are, so this  analogy works for me. It seems not to work for you because it appears you cannot even concieve of a solid, physical and independent god or angel which would bruise you, or break your nose if you ran into it or if it ran into you.
What I am explaining, in principle, is that when you encounter a solid, real and independent entity, even one like an angel or a god, you can prove its reality using exatcly the same evidences by which you prove a walls reality.

You can use the same methodologies and evidences to disprove the reality of an hallucinatory angel or god. (and indeed of a wall, or anything else which only exists in your mind.)

Edited by Mr Walker, 22 February 2013 - 06:58 AM.

[spud the mackem]

From when you are born its a survival fight to get to the other end,and how you do that is up to you,make the best of it,because you only get one chance.

[fullywired]

Mr Walker, on 22 February 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

In my life god is just as real and physical as walls are, so this  analogy works for me. It seems not to work for you because it appears you cannot even concieve of a solid, physical and independent god or angel which would bruise you, or break your nose if you ran into it or if it ran into you.
What I am explaining, in principle, is that when you encounter a solid, real and independent entity, even one like an angel or a god, you can prove its reality using exatcly the same evidences by which you prove a walls reality.

You can use the same methodologies and evidences to disprove the reality of an hallucinatory angel or god. (and indeed of a wall, or anything else which only exists in your mind.)

You have not provided any evidence at all to back up your thoughts ,If there was any evidence of Gods existence ,people other than you would have been shouting it from the rooftops but nobody has..It's the old saying you can't prove god exists nor can you prove he doesn't

fullywired

[lightly]

being

[Mr Walker]

fullywired, on 22 February 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

You have not provided any evidence at all to back up your thoughts ,If there was any evidence of Gods existence ,people other than you would have been shouting it from the rooftops but nobody has..It's the old saying you can't prove god exists nor can you prove he doesn't

fullywired

This is irrelevant to my knowing god exists and having concrete evidences of his existence . No one has to have other people know something, for it to be true.

Also irrelevant, but in contrast to your pov., I am "surrounded" by people who know god in the same way as i doand have had similar exerinces with god angels etc. Its like football If ou are intersted in football  yopu talk about it spend time with like minded followers and you you associate with others of the same nature.

Also, of course many people "shout" about their experiences with god. Many write books about such encounters, while others give personal witness and testimony to them. But you don't live in the environment where you would be aware of that.
In my life  many of those I associate with have a similar relationship to a real and physical god as I do. So, for me, I do not feel freakish or unusual. For me, for a person  to be "god blind" is unnatural and unusual.

But in the wider world, what you say is true Comparatively few people are fortunate enough to encounter things like the cosmic consciousness or physical manifestations of god or of angels. I walk away from conversations about football and the people who are holding them, so i know very few football fans, but i stop and listen to people with paranormal experiences and strike up conversations and relationships with them, and so I know many of them.

Edited by Mr Walker, 23 February 2013 - 01:02 AM.