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Israel pushes plans for 3000 new settlements


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#241    Yamato

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 10:26 AM

View Postand then, on 26 December 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

All Abbas has to do is to accept the offer to sit at the table and if YOU are correct then Netanyahu will look like a fool and a warmonger.  So why not just sit down at the table?  If the settlements are being constructed anyway (as they are) then what does Abbas have to lose, just to talk?  Talking sets no legal precedent that would cause the Palestinians loss.  And even if you are correct and the international community decrees that Israeli construction is legal, what progress is to be made by refusing to talk?  The status quo remains and that means the building continues.  Bottom line seems that you and the Palestinians both have an irrational expectation that the world is someday just going to solve this problem by coercion or force.
Let all international press into the room when they sit down at the table then.  No more closed back room deals and sweetheart bribes between bureaucrats that we're then told by our respective medias after the fact what supposedly happened.  Let's open the roof and let the sunshine in.  It doesn't matter who looks like what.  It matters that all of the people on all sides see what their leaders are doing.   I also don't see this as an opportunity for the people to sit and wait for what their leaders talk up next, but what to do next, which may include what to do next about their leaders.

As for the building, I've seen far less pretext for war than that; including just war.  It's expecting a lot to get someone to sit down at a table and talk about it.   If peoples' homes were being bulldozed by authorities in this country, I would support them whether their rifles came out their windows or not.   If we can't even respect property rights, we can't respect liberty.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#242    and then

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:56 PM

View PostYamato, on 26 December 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Let all international press into the room when they sit down at the table then.  No more closed back room deals and sweetheart bribes between bureaucrats that we're then told by our respective medias after the fact what supposedly happened.  Let's open the roof and let the sunshine in.  It doesn't matter who looks like what.  It matters that all of the people on all sides see what their leaders are doing.   I also don't see this as an opportunity for the people to sit and wait for what their leaders talk up next, but what to do next, which may include what to do next about their leaders.

As for the building, I've seen far less pretext for war than that; including just war.  It's expecting a lot to get someone to sit down at a table and talk about it.   If peoples' homes were being bulldozed by authorities in this country, I would support them whether their rifles came out their windows or not.   If we can't even respect property rights, we can't respect liberty.
I am NOT turning a blind eye to OR supporting the justification of more settlements.  I'm simply saying that if Abbas refused to stop trying based on that insult/assault then it would be a gambit to force Netanyahu to put up or shut up.  It would give Abbas the gravitas of peacemaker and reasonable leader (important) and it would cause movement of some kind in the process - hopefully in a positive direction.  As to who sits at the table - it shouldn't matter as long as everyone who is really involved in decisions on the ground is included. Hamas can derail with rockets so they need a few chairs.  The PA of course... and anyone else from any country that has a vested interest to move the process along.  But ultimately the decision to stop the bloodletting has to come from those who've been doing the blood letting.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#243    Yamato

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:48 PM

View Postand then, on 26 December 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

I am NOT turning a blind eye to OR supporting the justification of more settlements.  I'm simply saying that if Abbas refused to stop trying based on that insult/assault then it would be a gambit to force Netanyahu to put up or shut up.  It would give Abbas the gravitas of peacemaker and reasonable leader (important) and it would cause movement of some kind in the process - hopefully in a positive direction.  As to who sits at the table - it shouldn't matter as long as everyone who is really involved in decisions on the ground is included. Hamas can derail with rockets so they need a few chairs.  The PA of course... and anyone else from any country that has a vested interest to move the process along.  But ultimately the decision to stop the bloodletting has to come from those who've been doing the blood letting.
I won't limit the sources of where humanity's self-determination comes from; I'll accept any and all sources, even unexpected and unpredictable ones.   If freedom comes by AK-47 or a handshake, then so be it.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#244    and then

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:25 PM

View PostYamato, on 27 December 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

I won't limit the sources of where humanity's self-determination comes from; I'll accept any and all sources, even unexpected and unpredictable ones.   If freedom comes by AK-47 or a handshake, then so be it.
It's not 1776 any longer Yam.  If we don't soon get this right we would end ourselves.  This is my primary reason for ranting about an Iranian bomb.  It isn't just Iran, it's the idea that it's "just" for all nations to have one.  All nations don't have the stability to protect or reasonably handle the power that comes with them.  Eventually some tinpot or religious nut job is going to start a fire for independence that will nearly burn the world down.  I think it's inevitable - the only variable is how much time we can buy before it comes upon us.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#245    Yamato

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:56 PM

View Postand then, on 27 December 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

It's not 1776 any longer Yam.  If we don't soon get this right we would end ourselves.  This is my primary reason for ranting about an Iranian bomb.  It isn't just Iran, it's the idea that it's "just" for all nations to have one.  All nations don't have the stability to protect or reasonably handle the power that comes with them.  Eventually some tinpot or religious nut job is going to start a fire for independence that will nearly burn the world down.  I think it's inevitable - the only variable is how much time we can buy before it comes upon us.
Self defense is what's just.  If nuclear weapons are necessary for self defense, then that's the atmosphere put upon the world by the nations who already have them.    I don't piddle over Iran to the exclusion of all other nations, especially the ones who already have nukes.  The security of Russia's arsenals are a far greater security threat than Ahmadinejad mythology.  

Anyway this thread isn't about an Iranian bomb; there are plenty of other threads covering that.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#246    and then

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:21 PM

View PostYamato, on 27 December 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

Self defense is what's just.  If nuclear weapons are necessary for self defense, then that's the atmosphere put upon the world by the nations who already have them. I don't piddle over Iran to the exclusion of all other nations, especially the ones who already have nukes.  The security of Russia's arsenals are a far greater security threat than Ahmadinejad mythology.  

Anyway this thread isn't about an Iranian bomb; there are plenty of other threads covering that.
And I did not intend to derail - just making the point that since the status quo is unmoved for decades then maybe if the Palestinians gave a bit - like Israel did in 2008 with the ten month moratorium... then maybe - just maybe - some progress can be made.  But while they see Europeans and Americans beginning to line up in support then why not wait and see?  Maybe they can have all their desire yet.  It's insane.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#247    Yamato

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:48 PM

View Postand then, on 27 December 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

And I did not intend to derail - just making the point that since the status quo is unmoved for decades then maybe if the Palestinians gave a bit - like Israel did in 2008 with the ten month moratorium... then maybe - just maybe - some progress can be made.  But while they see Europeans and Americans beginning to line up in support then why not wait and see?  Maybe they can have all their desire yet.  It's insane.
If a burglar gave me a 10-minute reprieve to sit down and talk about his crimes against my property before his burglarizing continued, I'd talk to him with a magnum slug.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#248    and then

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 05:26 PM

View PostYamato, on 27 December 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

If a burglar gave me a 10-minute reprieve to sit down and talk about his crimes against my property before his burglarizing continued, I'd talk to him with a magnum slug.
So what outcome do you foresee then?  Don't punt.... take it to logical conclusion(s).

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#249    Yamato

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 05:59 PM

View Postand then, on 27 December 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

So what outcome do you foresee then?  Don't punt.... take it to logical conclusion(s).
Knowing what I would do personally doesn't presume I can foresee the outcome.  

But as I've said before, I see the end of the Zionist regime before the Apocalypse.  I predict this last colony will go out with a whimper not a bang, and the heaviest factor in that process will be the Israeli and American people.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#250    WHO U KIDDIN

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:01 AM

Israel to change route of separation fence near Jerusalem to cut off Palestinians from E-1 area

Defense Minister Ehud Barak has decided to close the breach in the barrier between Jerusalem and Ma'aleh Adumim, which will leave residents of Al-Zaim cut off by a fence to the east and by a wall to the west.

http://www.haaretz.c...remium-1.495178

The apartheid walls continue going up, and more Palestinian land is being stolen daily.

And even when the Palestinians peacefully demonstrate on their own land they are removed and jailed by the Israeli authorities:
Israel removes Palestinian protest camp outside Jerusalem

Tent city pitched near Beit Iksa just a week after Israel evacuated Palestinian encampment in E-1.

http://www.haaretz.c...usalem-1.495335


#251    and then

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:33 AM

Yep...it's simmering.... Intifada 3.0.   If the Palestinians remain peaceful in their protest then Israelis are in for some international trouble with this version.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#252    WHO U KIDDIN

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:36 PM

View Postand then, on 22 January 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

Yep...it's simmering.... Intifada 3.0.   If the Palestinians remain peaceful in their protest then Israelis are in for some international trouble with this version.

You're right Then, it appears that the moderate Palestinian factions have taken a page out of the Ghandi Playbook, they are using all the diplomatic options available to them instead of lobbing rockets at the Isrealis.This indeed may not bode well for the Isrealis.

Palestinians to Israel: Stop E-1 plan or we'll go to The Hague

Palestinian Foreign Minister Riad Malki says his government will have no choice but to take international action if settlement construction continues.

http://www.haaretz.c...-hague-1.496036

Edited by WHO U KIDDIN, 24 January 2013 - 04:37 PM.


#253    and then

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:33 AM

If they go diplomatically to the point of actually sitting down in March then they will gain land.  It won't be enough for the long term, imo, but they will gain.  The question for me is what does the world do if/when they start shooting again?  Call me a pessimist but I've seen this movie before and it ends ugly.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#254    acidhead

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:40 AM

View Postand then, on 25 January 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

If they go diplomatically to the point of actually sitting down in March then they will gain land.  It won't be enough for the long term, imo, but they will gain.  The question for me is what does the world do if/when they start shooting again?  Call me a pessimist but I've seen this movie before and it ends ugly.

Call an optimist... the inhabitants of so-called Israel could simply go 'home' to their mother lands.  Allow them.. 'them' to do no harm.  Let it go and watch what happens.  Above all, keep a strong moral principle.

This whole Islam will take over the world is paranoia BS.

"there is no wrong or right - just popular opinion"

#255    and then

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:39 AM

View Postacidhead, on 25 January 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Call an optimist... the inhabitants of so-called Israel could simply go 'home' to their mother lands.  Allow them.. 'them' to do no harm.  Let it go and watch what happens.  Above all, keep a strong moral principle.

This whole Islam will take over the world is paranoia BS.
  Yeah, I'm sure that you're right, and the Malians? They're  just a bunch of whiners - probably hysterical too - it's that French colonial legacy.  The dream of 7 million people deciding to walk away willingly from their lives is a little fantastical for the average person to believe but hey, you might be right :w00t:

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...




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